SUMMARY KEYWORDS
Effective ministry, discernment, Roman Catholicism, Protestant Reformation, five Solas, Scripture alone, spiritual authority, doctrinal preaching, gospel message, church growth, false gospels, prayer discipline, New Covenant, Mosaic law, pastoral encouragement.

SPEAKERS: Cory Piatt, Dave Harrell

Cory Piatt  
Hello and welcome to the Fortified podcast with author and pastor, Dr David Harrell. We're delighted you're here. Well as Christians, what is to be our central message in ministry? In this internet age in which we now live, there seems to be a steady stream of new ideas, opinions and doctrines that all vie for our attention in seeking to answer the question, what is the chief end of man? There is no shortage of answers out there. And because we're faced with so much data each and every day, it can be easy to get distracted and take our eyes off of that which really matters in light of eternity. Well, as we continue our chapter-by-chapterexamination of Dave's book, Seven Key Principles for Effective Ministry, today, we'll be looking at principle number four, namely, that we must be controlled by one message; and we'll see how God, in His Word, can give us discernment to know truth from error. In the midst of this age of informational overload, as always, we pray you're edified by this conversation, and we hope you enjoy.


Cory Piatt  
Well, as of this recording, Dave, we are about 12 days past the introduction of the new bishop of Rome, Pope Leo, the 14th. Now, according to Roman Catholicism, he's considered a successor to the apostle Peter, who, in their mind, they believe him to be the first pope due to a misreading of Matthew 16. Now, within Catholic theology, there are three distinct sources of authority: scripture, tradition and the magisterium, which is a word that simply refers to the teaching authority of the Catholic Church. You begin the chapter in the book by reminding us of the triumph of the truth in church history during the Protestant Reformation. And the rallying cry for the Reformers was the five Solas, which is a kind of doctrinal summary of the gospel. A person is saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, for the glory of God alone, all according to scripture alone. Now that last point there referring to our singular authority as Christians - scripture alone. My question is, why is it so crucial that we hold the line on that point, Dave, and not allow for other sources of authority, as in the case of our Roman Catholic friends?

Dave Harrell  
It's very important because man is fallible, and we are to guard ourselves against the wisdom of man and depend solely upon the wisdom of God. I mean, there's so many passages that speak to this issue. I think Jude three, for example, we are told that we need "to contend earnestly for the faith that was once and for all given to the saints," right? And as soon as you move away from the canon of Scripture -- what God has revealed in his inspired, infallible, authoritative, inerrant, all-sufficient word--once you move away from that, then you're allowing poison to enter into all of these great theological truths, and at that point Satan can do his mischief. And you know, I think when Jesus was going to the cross in John 17, he prayed to the Father, "Father, sanctify them in the truth. Thy word is truth." And again, so many other passages that warn us against the wisdom of man and the way Satan can deceive. He's the father of lies and certainly one of the primary ways he brings deception into our lives is by questioning, distorting the truth. I mean, it began back in the garden, didn't it? And it continues to this day. And certainly, if you look at Roman Catholicism, which in many ways, is a Mary cult; it is just so errant on so many fronts. It's hard to even know where to begin, but you see that it is truly a false religious system. It is an apostate religious system; a system of works righteousness, if you will. And so as soon as you allow tradition and the magisterium and all ofthose things in along with the word, who's going to be the final arbiter here? Is it going to be scripture? Is that our authority? Or is it going to be scripture plus tradition, Scripture plus what the church has taught, which is many times in contradiction of itself, right? Or what the Pope has said ex cathedra. Of course, there's a big mess right now, even within Roman Catholicism, with the whole trans and LGBTQ you just go on and list the things where they're all fighting amongst each other, and so that's what you run into. So to answer your question, I mean, we've got to hold the line on the authority of Scripture, and not deviate from that, because as soon as you do, you open yourself up, you open your own heart up, you open your church up, to all kinds of error that the enemy would love to bring in to the church, and then gradually begin to distort things. We begin to compromise and then you got one group going off here and another group going off here, and it's a mess, so we have to hold the line.

Cory Piatt  
And I'm reminded of in Deuteronomy 13; we have one of the tests given for how we can evaluate whether or not someone is a legitimate prophet in the Old Testament. And that test in Deuteronomy 13 reveals that even if what this person says comes to pass, but they lead you after another god, they're to be rejected as a false prophet. So you have that principle really playing out, even into Acts where the Apostle Paul commends the Bereans, for example, for testing his word against scripture. And man, it’s so helpful and just so I'm clear on what you're not saying when we refer to Scripture as our sole authority. You're not saying that we can't read other sources or avail ourselves of other resources, right?

Dave Harrell  
Right. I think the key word is authority. Our spiritual authority has to be the word of God. It is God breathed. It is inspired by him, and it's profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, training in righteousness, etc. But of course, there are many other resources out there that that can speak into our lives and elaborate even more on the great truths that the word of God has given us. But the real key is the authority, and scripture has to be the final arbiter in all of that and that's why, if you look at the beginning of Philippians, if you look at even the beginning of Colossians, you'll see how the apostle Paul, for example, prayed that the people would have the knowledge of Christ  In the original language, the epigenosin - the term that it has a preposition in front of gnosin, which means knowledge - that little preposition would expand it so it's like the full, thorough, complete knowledge. And you go to Ephesians four, you get the same thing and in so many places. So we have to have the full knowledge of who God is, just doctrinally in his Word. And then once you have that, then isn't it wonderful to read about church history? Isn't it wonderful to read how God has worked in so many other avenues through his church. And then, of course, there's all the things that we have in science and music and so many other things. Second Peter one three, says that He has "granted unto us all things pertaining to life and godliness," and it's through the knowledge of him, so that has tobe foundational. But we all need to be reading other things; I don't mean other things in terms of to find out a different gospel. We have to guard against that, but we need to be reading great theological works that help expand upon what God has said in his word. And I love to do that. I encourage everybody to do that. I know you do that.

Cory Piatt  
Amen, yeah, it's a blessing. We stand on the shoulders of those.

Dave Harrell
Don't we though? Absolutely and so there's so many wonderful works out there. But again, our authority has to be the inspired, inerrant Word of the living God.

Cory Piatt  
Thank you, brother. As we as we think about this chapter again, principle number four, which is that we are to be controlled by one message, you argue here that in the chapter that we should be controlled by that message. I guess I'd give you the opportunity, what is the message that we're to be controlled by? And then, why is it central to our work in the ministry?

Dave Harrell
Well, the message we have to be controlled by is the word of truth, which is the gospel. In fact, you will see that phrase used in a number of places in the New Testament. And so our message has to be Christ and Him crucified. And when you think about God's self-disclosure in Scripture, you know he didn't write all of that and disclose who he is in all of his glory just to tell us a story, but rather, it's to demonstrate his holiness and his plan of redemption that would ultimately bring him glory. So all of Scripture combined is the gospel, ultimately; it's the word of truth, and so that has to be our message. Now, that doesn't mean that you always just preach on soteriology, all right? That you always just give an evangelistic sermon, but it means that you preach as Paul did, the whole counsel of God. And that's why, like right now, we're in Zechariah eight - I think maybe last week I finished chapter eight - but wherever you go in Scripture, even in the prophets, in the Old Testament, you see the glory of God and his plan of redemption and restoration of the kingdom, and all of these things fitting together. So they're interwoven in a way that produces a beautiful tapestry, which is the good news of Christ and him crucified, and the need for us to come to him in saving faith. So that has to be the message, so when we get up to preach, the message can't be, let's just talk about politics, or let's talk about self-esteem or let's exegete the latest movie, right? But rather, let's look into the riches of the word. Let's examine what is there. And when you do that, flowing out of that will come these magnificent truths that speak to the glory and the greatness of our God and the joy of knowing Christ, the power of his transforming grace and the hope of our of redemption - the plan of the ages. You can't plumb the depths of it. And so that has to be the theme. And if it's not there, then you will find, as many preachers do, people just talking about superficial silliness, things that just don't really matter that much, and real shallow types of topics. As I say, shallow as water on a plate, or as shallow as frost on a pumpkin. It's those types of things. And it's like everybody's heard all this before and instead, what we've got to do is dig into the Word and give people the riches of what an exposition will reveal. Otherwise, you literally banish people to an island of spiritual infancy because they just don't know the word, and we need to grow in the grace and the knowledge of God and so forth.

Cory Piatt  
I'm reminded, you alluded to Second Timothy three, that great text on the inspiration of Scripture, all of it being God breathed. And then, and it's benefit to us. And then right after that, that a man might be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. And then he goes on in chapter four to say, now I charge you preach the word.

Dave Harrell
Absolutely. Yeah, so this isn't an option. I mean, this is what God has called us to do, and to do it in season and out of season, you know? And it's really out of season, right? In fact, it's always been out of season for the most part, because people hate the gospel. I mean, nobody likes to hear that all that they are and all that they do is fundamentally offensive to a holy God, and that because of your depravity, you are absolutely unable to save yourself, and the only thing you can do is cry out to God to save you and place your faith in his provision for your salvation, which is the person and the work of the Lord Jesus Christ. And I mean, that's the good news, but people don't want to hear the bad news. They'd rather hear how good we are and how we've been a victim, and we need to change society so that we can feel better about ourselves. And then it all gets off and then you get all these ridiculous gospels that are out there - prosperity gospel, which is rooted, rooted in the garden, and the social gospel and all ofthis silly stuff that's just such a distortion.

Cory Piatt  
Well, we'll get into some of those distortions to the gospel in a little bit here, but before we do, let me ask you this, early in the chapter, you explain some of the historical context for the book of First Corinthians, explaining the way in which many philosophers within the city of Corinth would gain power and influence as a result of their oratory skill or persuasive speech, contrasting this worldly method of growth with that of the apostle Paul, whose message was uncompromising and whose manner was unconventional. I wonder if you could comment briefly on the tendency that many have in the ministry to seek church growth as the end goal and thus may employ these extra biblical or worldly tactics in order to accomplish that. And then as a follow up, was that ever a tendency that you faced in your own heart, your own ministry, and if so, how'd you address it.


Dave Harrell  
Okay, Boy, that's a question and a half. I've certainly been tempted with that over the years, but I've tried, by God's grace, to avoid that. But let me back up. When you think of Corinth, for example - and I was just there in the ruins of Corinth not too many months ago - it was a vile, wretched place. And you’ve got all of the Roman and Greek mystery religions going on and then you've got some Jews there; most of it was apostate. To come in and to preach the gospel, it’s like, how's anybody ever going to hear this, right? And by the way, the answer to that is, it's solely by the sovereign grace of God that anybody would ever be saved. But anyway, what was interesting was what was going on culturally there. Since they didn't have televisions and Hollywood and all that, what they had were great orators and great philosophers that would come in and they would speak. And they even used to practice with rocks in their mouth to be able to say things clearly and powerfully. And people would pick which orator they liked the best and which philosophy they liked the best. And it became very sectarian. Which, by the way, was part of the problem. Some of these people got saved, they brought it into the church and be saying, "I am of Apollo," all of that type of thing. And sopeople, for entertainment, would go hear these men, these great orators, talk about whatever issue they believed in and they would get people to follow them, and everybody gets worked up.

Dave Harrell  
Don't we see this in our own politics, you know? You know, guys can say things that's just utterly stupid, but because of the way he's saying it, people are just excited and carrying on. And so anyway, you would think that Paul would say, okay, this is the method that gets their attention right? So I need to to speak that way, I need to learn to conduct myself in that way and be a great orator in order to present the gospel. Because, after all, the real key for people believing in the gospel is in the preacher. You're laughing because, yeah it's not in the preacher at all. It's in the power of the message. The gospel is the power of God unto salvation to the Jews and to the Greeks and so forth. So what did he do? He tells us very clearly, in First Corinthians, he said, "I determined to know nothing among you except Christ and Him crucified." And he wasn't a great speaker. In fact, they made fun of him, but God used that to absolutely change lives. And so the power is in the message preached, not in the preacher. And as soon as you start thinking that there is a better method for evangelism than preaching the gospel with all of its offense - and I'm not saying you preach it offensively; you want to be gracious and kind, but you've got to be authoritative - but as soon as you start thinking there's a better strategy for evangelism than preaching the gospel, which would become like the world in order to win the world; which is at the heart of evangelical pragmatism, seeker sensitive, all that type... as soon as soon as you start thinking that way, you're going to run into trouble. Now you can fill up stadiums with that. You can really attract a crowd with it. But there's a big, big difference between a crowd and a church. And as you see in the New Testament, God never affirmed, never commended, a church because of their size. He did so because of their faith and their love for him, and their sincerity of heart and the gospel and all of those types of things.

Dave Harrell  
I've been in ministry now for 40 years, the pastor of the same church for a little over 30 years and I've seen the power of the gospel to absolutely change lives. It changed my life, and it's changed many others; and it's also run a lot of people off. And that's God's deal. We are simply to sow the seed, and the seed that we sow has to be the seed of the gospel. Sometimes it's going to fall on soil where it won't grow. Sometimes it'll fall on some soil where it'll grow real fast, but it'll wither away because it wasn't real. But what we're never told to do is somehow come up with a hybrid seed that will grow in any soil, right? No, you sow the real seed, and God will cause it to germinate in the hearts of his elect that he has set his love upon in eternity past. And according to the efficacious call of the Spirit of God on their life, they will be saved. "All those that the Father has given Me will come to Me," Jesus said. Anyway, we can trust in the gospel. That's what Paul did. And that's why, I'm not sure how I put it in the book, it was his confidence in his soteriology, confidence in his understanding of the doctrine of salvation and therefore, the power of the gospel that really informed his methodology. His message is what informed his methods. And so his method was very unconventional. It wasn't like what everybody else was doing. But the reason it was unconventional is because he knew it didn't have anything to do with him. It had everything to do with the truth that the Spirit of God uses to bring conviction to sinners and save them by his grace.

Dave Harrell  
So now you were asking me, have I been tempted to do the seeker sensitive thing? Yeah, I have been, over the years and I've always fought it because I know down deep, it's going to produce the wrong results. Years ago, when I was at Moody Bible Institute, I was very close to Dr Culbertson, who was the president, and he had a great statement that I'll never forget. He said that "What you win them with; you win them too." And, and I've seen that by God's grace. Before I became a pastor, I was in biblical counseling for about 10 years, and I worked primarily with highly visible Christian leaders, a lot in the music industry, a lot of big-namepastors and organizations, and consulted for them and all of that. And I saw firsthand the hypocrisy and I saw the immorality. I saw firsthand what a distorted, compromised gospel can do. And, it was really horrifying to me, and God certainly used that to basically inform me: now you know what the Word says, so don't fall off into that pit like so many of these other people have done. And so guard yourself here, because it's always easy to say, well, let's come up with a new program or something really cool to get people to come to church and then maybe they'll get saved rather than, hey, let's just stay focused on the systematic, in depth, teaching, preaching and application of the word of God, and let God do what only he can do in the lives of the people. Build the church like that and trust in Him to do what only he can do. And he's been faithful to do that in our church, as you know, and in so many others.

Cory Piatt  
Man, one quote that I'm going to take away from this, I love what you said there that the Lord never commended a church for its size but for its faithfulness. Thank you, brother. Thanks for walking through that with me. If we could turn back now to discuss some of those errantgospels. You say, on page 96 after discussing heresies such as the prosperity gospel and the carnal Christian gospel, etc., you say, "The common denominator of all perverted gospels is that they make people's felt needs the center of gravity around which God's plan of redemption must orbit. With God playing second fiddle, man distorts the message of the gospel and creates what Jesus described as "a wide gate" and "a broad way that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter by it," quoting Matthew 7:14. I wonder if you can, you've done so a little bit already, but I wonder if you could elaborate more on that point and help train our discernment as we seek to recognize and call out these false gospels before they come.

Dave Harrell
Well, of course, all false gospels are going to have the common denominator of some form of salvation by works that you're not really all that bad and you're really a victim and if you'll do these things, you know, you'll make the cut, some version of that. But so much of what we've seen in evangelicalism over the years, and I think that's probably the context - I forget what all I wrote, frankly - but it has been a very man-centered gospel, right? A man-centered church. You come into a lot of these churches, and the music is all very man centered. It's kind of "Jesus my boyfriend" type stuff, and it's very emotional. Rather than the music being used to express worship, it's used to induce some kind of worship, some kind of feeling. And so, you get people in an emotional state, and then you'll hear a whole lot of stuff about felt needs; that God wants you to have a great marriage. He wants you to feel good about yourself. And a lot of those things can be true, but it's all focused very much on the man. It's on man and his needs, rather than God and his glory. And so, rather than the emphasis being on the attributes of God - and what he's saying in the text, and how that applies to the big picture of redemption in our lives in general, and how we should yield ourselves to these truths - instead, that's kind of set aside over here, because nobody really wants to hear that stuff. It's a little too heavy. You know, we need something a little more therapeutic. We need to feel good about ourselves when we leave here. We need to hear how we've been mistreated and how God just loves us just like we are, and of course what people hear is, you really don't have to change that much; the whole idea of being broken and really repenting of our sins. I mean, you just don't hear that in a man centered church. But you'll hear a whole lot of stories, personal experiences. Oh, God did this. God did that. And the idea is that if you’ll just do some of these things, he's going to bless you the same way. And the poor guy sitting over there whose child is dying with cancer, is saying, "that's not working for me."

Dave Harrell  
And in fact, you brought up the Matthew seven - which let me just turn there - that's part of the of the Sermon on the Mount. In Matthew seven, he speaks to this whole thing of how you know, "Not everybody who calls Me 'Lord,’” verse 21, "will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father, who is in heaven." And what's fascinating is, in this whole section here, he's talking about professing Christians. Doesn't mean they're possessing Christians, that they possess Christ, but they profess him. And as you look at it, you'll see that there he's talking about, "enter by the narrow gate, for the gate is wide in the way is broad that leads to destruction." And what we see in this text is that there's a contrast here. There's two ways:  there's the narrow and there's the broad. Both of them say this way to heaven, right? But only one of them is real. And there's two gates. There's the narrow gate of genuine repentance, and there's the wide gate of easy believeism and that's where the big crowd is; everybody's running through that gate. And then there's also two destinations. There's the destination of eternal life. There's the destination of destruction. There's two groups of people, the few versus the many, right? It's only the few that are going to enter; they're going to strive to enter into the narrow gate and the striving, the agonizing groaning of genuine repentance and acknowledging our desperate need for a Savior.

Dave Harrell  
So you've got two groups, the few and the many. And then he goes on, he talks about two trees, there's the good tree and the bad tree, and they produce two types of fruit, the good fruit and the bad fruit. And there's two professors of Christ, there's the sincere, and then the false; the true and the false. There are two builders, right? There's the wise and there's the foolish. And there's two foundations. One's building on a rock, the other is building on sand. And then there's two types of houses. One house is secure, one is insecure. So he's making this contrast. And the point with all of that is that so many people, and again, the few versus the many, he's saying that most people who profess Christ will never enter the kingdom because they've been self-deceived. And this whole man centered gospel is one of the greatest tools that the enemy has ever invented to deceive people. This idea that that somehow you can just make some lighthearted profession, and just kind of believe in Jesus and with no real repentance, no real remorse, no real brokenness over your sin, no real understanding of God's holiness and your sinfulness and the glory of the cross and what Christ really did. None of that, but, but rather just kind of a cultural Christianity, and you become a Christian in name only. And that's the real danger. You may, you may call him Lord, and you may do religious things, because he says "'Many will say to Me on that day,'" referring the Day of Judgment, "'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy,'' in other words, preach in your name, "...and in Your name, cast out demons and in Your name, perform many miracles.'" And he says, "'Then I will declare to them, I never knew you. Depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.'" And so back to the topic here, a man-centered gospel will never save. Only a God centered gospel that exalts the glory, the holiness of God, and helps people see that they have offended a holy God and that they deserve his just wrath - which could be for eternity - but be solely because of his grace, you have an opportunity to be reconciled to him through faith in Christ. A faith that comes through genuine repentance, genuine humility and even that is a work of the Spirit. So anyway, that's going to be the true gospel. But so much of that gets watered down because it's offensive and so let's just kind of set that aside.

Dave Harrell  
In fact, I remember years ago, when I was teaching at Master's University, I had a seeker sensitive church call me and I'll never forget, they wanted me to preach. And I thought, oh, this is going to be interesting. And he said, there some concepts that we want you to avoid. We would prefer that you not talk about sin or repentance or about hell. And they had a few things like that. And I mean, right there, you just eviscerate the gospel? Because, you know, Jesus said that he sent the Spirit of God to convict the world of sin, righteousness and judgment. I mean, what am I going to preach about? And so anyway, I'll never forget that. As I told the guy, I said, I think I'm out. I tried to explain to him a little bit, and I could tell it, it wasn't what he wanted to hear, and so I didn't go. 'll never forget it.

Cory Piatt  
That's wild. As you're discussing that, I'm just reminded of the Psalms. You know, the irony of that therapeutic gospel that promises a kind of comfort is that it's really robbing people of true comfort, lasting comfort and satisfaction in the understanding of who our God is. And so you think of the psalter, where you know Psalm 46 for example, where he says, "The Lord is," oh, I'm blanking now..."my refuge and strength, a very present help in time of trouble. And he goes on to just extol the greatness of God. So that's the place where true comfort in the midst ofaffliction can be found, not in this counterfeit here.

Dave Harrell
And the counterfeit, certainly, in that whole prosperity gospel that that, "come to Jesus and you're going to be healthy, wealthy, successful," all that type of thing. Well, it didn't work out for Jesus, did it? It didn't work out for Paul. It didn't work out for Peter. I mean, you start going down the line; Hebrews 11. I mean, it's so powerful to people, and it fills stadiums. People in Africa, for example, you know, they see this prosperity gospel, which is essentially a Ponzi scheme. And they see this guy, man, he's got a plane, he's got a Mercedes and all this stuff,and I want to be like that. And that's why you have as many going out the back doors, coming in the front door with that whole thing, because after a while they realize it's phony. It's heart wrenching. What a wicked distortion of the gospel. That's why people that preach that type of thing are accursed, we read in Galatians.

Cory Piatt  
Well, brother, I've always appreciated your clarity on that issue. Let me ask you this, quoting you on page 98 you say, "The New Testament makes it clear that doctrinal preaching bathed in prayer is what God has ordained for the growth of his church" - what we've been talking about here. Would you give us some passages that demonstrate this and help us to understand what you mean by doctrinal preaching?

Dave Harrell  
Okay, and doctrinal preaching is essentially exegetical, expositional preaching. Where you're clearly communicating the authorial intent of the passage in its context and helping people understand the language - all of the technical aspects of it - but then doing it in such a way as to apply it to our lives. Passages... one of the first ones that comes to mind is in the qualifications for an elder in Titus one, and verse nine, he says that we need to "hold fast the faithful word, which is in accordance with the teaching." That is the apostolic teaching of Scripture, okay? So that that man can be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict. We've got to be able to do that. There's a couple of other passages. I think of what Paul told Timothy in First Timothy four, verse 13, he says, "Until I come, give attention to the public reading of Scripture," which, by the way, it's not just reading it, but expositing it, explaining it. It's more than we just read it, we explain it. The public reading of Scripture, and then also to exhortation. Which exhortation would be application. So you have reading, exposition, application, and he says, teaching. "Until I come, give attention to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation and teaching." And that is Titus one nine that I just read; that's sound doctrine. That's doctrinal teaching. Later on in verse 16, he says, "Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching." Again, your doctrine. "Persevere in these things. For as you do this, you will ensure salvation, both for yourself and for those who hear you." And so look at Peter's sermon. I mean, he was all over the place, just explaining great doctrinal truths; in Acts...you look at, obviously Jesus - anything that he taught - you look at Stephen, you look at Paul, you look at Peter. Like the book of Romans, my goodness, it was all doctrinal up until about chapter 12, then all of a sudden there's application, right?

Dave Harrell  
So I forget, I'm going off here on a tangent, but you asked me a question. I think it was about doctrinal preaching. What is it? That's what it is. And that's why it's important, because it's the rich truths of Bible doctrine that inform our conscience and animate our souls to a deeper level of worship, because the more we know who God is, the more we're just completely blown away and the more we can celebrate his grace. Now that's not to say that a child that doesn't understand a lot about Bible doctrine can't worship the Lord, or even an individual that hasn't been taught very much. Of course, they can. But boy, the more you know about who he is and what he's up to, and the more you see that opened up in the word; I mean it just takes you to a different level. I don't mean just intellectually, but I mean in terms of your worship, and that's why it's so important,



Cory Piatt  
Amen. Yeah, it's been well said that as our understanding of the truth of God's word goes deeper, our worship goes higher. Okay, well, let me ask you this, you mentioned Jude three earlier. So we've established that in our churches, we are to be controlled by one message, - the gospel of Christ and Him crucified - and we're to be devoted to systematic preaching and teaching of the doctrines of the faith, which we are called to contend earnestly for in Jude three. In contrast, you say on page 100 of your book, "Sadly, contending earnestly for the faith is now being defined by some evangelical leaders as creating a hostile environment that is injurious to the gospel. Such an errant position will continue to produce unimaginable forms of moral and religious compromise." Now I absolutely agree with that quote, Dave, however, is it possible to speak the truth in such a way that is damaging to the flock and ultimately, our witness to Christ, and how might we avoid erring in either direction?

Dave Harrell
Oh, yeah, you can. You can speak the truth in such a dogmatic, almost mean-spirited way that it drives people crazy. I mean, there's nothing more vicious than a young person who just discovered, you know, the doctrines of grace. And he's cramming tulips down everybody's throat. You know, there's some passages that that come to mind about this topic. First Thessalonians five. And this is really to all of us, but he says, and "We urge you, brethren, admonish the unruly." Okay? Admonishes - "noutheteō" - the idea of counseling them; you confront them. It's like, you know, brother, look, this is what God is saying. This is what you're doing. Let me show you from the word, this is wrong, and I just want to call you to repentance here for your own good. To admonish means to instruct, it means to warn. So we're to admonish the unruly, and then he says, "encourage the fainthearted." By the way, the unruly are those people that are undisciplined. They're errant in their thinking. They're kind of lazy, those type of people. But he changes it here when it comes to the to the fainthearted, you encourage them. The fainthearted are those that are easily discouraged. And you know the difference, I mean, you got some people are just unruly. I mean, they're just, they're just all over the place. There's other people that just kind of timid, and they're just easily discouraged all the time.

Cory Piatt  
Man, I'm reminded of something you said Sunday; is someone who's living in unrepentant sin is going to live under divine chastening. I think something like that, you said, and so, you know, our desire is to see people grow in their love for Christ and in so doing, enjoy all the blessedness that comes along with that.

Dave Harrell  
And then it says, "help the weak." The weak here, in this context, is referring to those that are spiritually, morally weak, and then he says, "be patient with all men." Now, so when you're preaching, you may have some great doctrinal truth that you're presenting, but you want to realize that in your audience, out there, you're going to have the unruly - and at some level I want to admonish them in the context of what I'm saying - but I'm also going to have some that are faint hearted, and so I want to be careful with them. I'm to encourage them, all right? And then I'm going to have some that are just weak, and I just need to help them. I want to say things in such a way, and I'll say this a lot of times, "I hope this is helpful for you to understand"...that this and this and this will help you in that, you know, whatever. And then the real key here is "be patient with all men." So it's not like, you know, here have another tulip or whatever, you know, I'm making fun of that. In Ephesians as well, let me give you another passage. In Ephesians 4:2, well, let me begin in 4:1, "I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, entreat you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called, with all humility and gentleness and patience." Humility refers to lowly thinking. Be very humble as you communicate truths to people and "in all gentleness and with patience, showing forbearance to one another in love." And forbearance is an interesting term - and you want to keep this in mind when you're preaching great doctrinal truths that you know some people are struggling with, and they're going to resent you -  forbearance means to not only submit to an injustice, but to stay in it until the provocation is passed. Okay? And so you know, there's going to be people that I've had them come up to me after church, say, you know, I don't agree with that, because it says right here, and they want to pick a fight. And we're not going to do that. I want to be patient. Well, okay, that's an interesting perspective. Can I challenge you that, that perhaps what you're saying isn't right because of what the Word says here and there and maybe we can talk about this more later. What that's got to be my attitude. Now, if they get downright belligerent, I mean, there comes a time when a shepherd has to use his rod, but back to your question, my goodness, we have to be careful, even in our preaching. Galatians six, if you see someone that's in sin, we're to try to restore them in a spirit of gentleness. And we're to bear one another's burdens and thus fulfill the law of Christ, which is the law of love. And to bear their burdens, it doesn't mean commiserate with them in their misery, it means to help them as they're carrying their burden of sin that you've confronted them with; to help them deal with that. Brother, let's talk more about this issue, because what I want you to see are some of the magnificent ways that the Spirit of God has given us in His word that can help you deal with your pornography addiction or whatever it might be, right? And so in gentleness, I'm not going to come to him with guns blazing, and don't you know what God said, you know, whatever. And so I think your question was a good one. Something about, you know, do we have to be careful when we...yeah, we do.

Dave Harrell
Absolutely, I had an individual just recently, I mean, their life's a dumpster fire, okay? And, and when you hear the story, it's one of those things like, what were you thinking? I mean, and I think I used, I talked about this Sunday, you know, to talk with so many people, didn’t you not know that God would not want you to have done that? I mean, did that ever go through your mind? And of course, the answer is, well, I never really thought about it at the time, because they're not setting their mind on things above, you know, and all of those types of things. But anyway, even with those people, you want to come alongside them and say, man, some of the things that you've been doing are just so contrary to the Word and the will of God. And because of that, it's no wonder your marriage is a disaster. It's no wonder your kids are the way they are. It's no wonder, and you just start going down the list. I mean, God is not going to bless any of that because you're not honoring him in your life. And there has to come a point in time where you get serious and you truly come to a place of brokenness and repentance and start putting off and putting on and, you know, all those types of things. So that has to be the attitude with people, rather than some heavy handed...all it does is just drive people away or make them a rigid conformist. It'll either do that or make them a total rebel.

Cory Piatt  
Man, okay, well, you go on in the book, Dave, to describe the indispensable role of prayer in relation to preaching - we could probably say all of ministry -  setting the Lord Jesus as our supreme example in this, you point out how, although he was God incarnate, he nevertheless understood his utter dependence upon the Father and the Holy Spirit to carry out his work. I wonder if you would just elaborate on the role of prayer in preaching and in carrying out that work of the gospel ministry that we've been called to.

Dave Harrell  
Well, certainly Christ is our supreme example. And in his humanness, he relied solely upon the power of the Spirit of God to help him do what he did. And prayer is not just; I'm going to set aside an hour now and pray. I mean, there's times where it's an event, but more often than not, it's a constant attitude, especially when you're studying the Word. You're you know, when I study the Word, I'm just in communication with the Lord the whole time. It's not like I study some and then I'll talk with him. I mean this is him speaking, and Jesus said, "My sheep hear my voice, and they follow Me." This is his voice, and so I'm interacting with him, but I have learned that the closet is more important than the library. You learn the word. And of course, we're always learning it. We're always learning more about it, but it's not so much I need prayer and understanding of the word, I do - and I'm always going to ask the Spirit of God to help me make sure I understand the text so I can communicate it accurately - but beyond that, Lord, my prayer is that somehow you will use your word to conform me more into the image of Christ, that it will speak to me and that by your power, people will hear in my voice what is truly in my heart, that I want to honor you with this. Lord, this is only something you can do. And soyou know that that's not just something you do every now and then, that's just kind of an ongoing attitude. It's like we’re told, pray without ceasing; it's that type of thing. And so it is very important that we spend time in prayer, and then also praying that the Lord will soften hearts, right? Because when the Word goes forth, it's either going to harden or soften hearts, one of the other, and that's going to be his deal. I just want to make sure that I'm crying, I'm pleading, you know, for those dear people that are under my care, that they might have a heart that's soft to the truth that they might be saved or sanctified, you know, depending upon where they are. Are they lost or are they saved?

Cory Piatt  
Right, okay, excellent brother. Well, you go on to say that it is the indispensable discipline of prayer that unleashes unfathomable spiritual power that alone can accomplish what man can never do. I love that you use the word discipline here, because in the midst of our busy lives, devoting time to personal communion with the Lord in prayer is often the first thing to go by the wayside. What encouragement would you give to the Christian or a pastor out there who's struggling in that discipline of prayer?

Dave Harrell  
Well, if you're struggling in the discipline of prayer, it means that there's something awry in your relationship with the Lord. You know, it's just like in my relationship with my dear wife. Now, 51 years, you know. If I'm not wanting to talk with her, if I'm not wanting to commune with her, there's something wrong. And so we need to get that worked out, whatever it is. I mean, she needs to straighten up (laughter). But my point is, if you're struggling with your prayer life, your relationship with the Lord is not what it needs to be, and you've allowed other things to distract you in subtle ways, that you may not be aware, your soul has gone in search of some other secret lover, whatever it might be, and it could be, video games or, I don't know, people can get distracted with all kinds of things, and you just get caught up in the busyness of life, your own family.  I remember one pastor told me that one of the things that almost destroyed his ministry was his son's soccer. Because they just got so caught up in with that, and they were spending all their time and money traveling all over the place to watch soccer games. But what I would say is you need to examine your heart before the Lord and see - where is there something broken in our relationship? And then along with that, I mean, there is a discipline there. I mean, Paul told Timothy, you need to discipline yourself for the sake of godliness. And so there has tobe a priority, a commitment; and everybody's going to be different. But for me, years ago, I developed the habit of just spending time alone with the Lord early in the morning, and that's usually when Jesus did it. And I thought, well, you know, I think I'll do it do it his way. But that's with the word, or something else that I'm reading, along with just communing with him. Lots of times with a cup of coffee. And those are precious times with him for me. And it's just like those precious times we would have with our wife, where let's go get something to eat, or honey, let's go for a walk, or let's sit on the porch. We've got all the things that we do to commune. We have to set those things aside and make them a priority. But if it's not a desire and it's just a duty, where it's like, oh boy, it's time for me to go work out, it's not going to last, right? And soyou have to figure out, why is this such a dude? Why is it that I don't want to commune with the lover of my soul? Why is it that I don't want to immerse myself in his Word and have him speak to me through it. I would also add that, if you're truly all about shepherding, and all of the duties that are part of that that God has commanded us to do, all of the one anotherings - discipleship, evangelism, all the counseling, sometimes the confronting - if you're not into all of that, then prayer won't be that important. But if you're dedicating yourself to that, you won't have to say, I need to take some time to pray. I mean, if the phone call comes and it's cancer, you don't say, "no big deal." No, all of a sudden there's a huge priority. What I'm trying to say is, when you're really ministering to people, there will be those phone calls all the time in terms of distress, conflict, problems, you're just dealing with things all the time, and because of that - because we're not made to deal with all of that - what do we do? We run to the Lord. I just have to live at his feet, you know, Jesus said, "apart from Me, you can do nothing." So that's part of abiding in Him (John 15 and so forth), and so let me say it a little bit differently, I'm rambling here, if you're really doing what God has called you to do as a pastor, in shepherding your people, you'll pray; because your very life will depend upon it. Your very ministry will depend upon it. It will be the nourishment that you need for your very soul, and it will become the power that you will have once you get in the pulpit and when you're dealing with the lives of other people. And so those are the things you need to look at.

Cory Piatt  
A friend of ours, a mutual friend of ours, pointed out a quote that you had said. He said, "I've learned that prayer is more important than preparation." That was deeply convicted and very encouraging.

Dave Harrell  
By the way, it doesn't mean you don't prepare, but you're praying all the time, and you just have to be constantly in fellowship with the Lord. That's the point. And when you are, when you're enjoying that sweet communion. It's not like I guess I need to carve out some time. You can't wait to do that, and you just kind of do it all the time.

Cory Piatt  
All right, wonderful brother. Well, the next portion of this chapter describes the growing gap which exists between the so-called churched and unchurched in our society. The churched being those individuals who regularly attend church, and the unchurched being those who claim to be Christian but do not attend worship services. We've seen, Dave, a kind of easy believeism sweeping the evangelical world for many years now, where people will quickly affirm someone to be a Christian based solely on a profession of faith, even if there's an evident lack of fruit, a carnal lifestyle, or even false doctrine. I guess my question is, why is this such a dangerous air to wholeheartedly embrace as Christian, those who refuse to partake in the local church gathering the unchurched that you're referring to in the chapter?

Dave Harrell  
Because you therefore communicate to them that somehow, they are in genuine fellowship with the living God, and they've truly been born again when that may not be the case. Now, obviously we don't know with people but when you see people that have no desire to worship Him, they have no hunger for the Word, they have no love for the brethren, they have no desire to sing praises to his name, and  evangelism and all the one anotherings that are part of the church -  I could go on and on - they have no basis to claim genuine saving faith, because what validates genuine saving faith is a person's love for Christ, who is the head of the church, and a love for the brethren; you're part of the family of God; a love for His word, a love for all of those things. And so people that truly love Christ, you couldn't drive them away from a godly worship service with wild horses. I mean, this is where they go to allow the doxologies of their soul to be expressed. Now I understand there are people that may truly love Christ that don't go to church because they don't have a good church to go to. There's a lot of churches that, my goodness, if that was only church in town, I couldn't go. I mean, sometimes the churches, they are so boring, or they are so ridiculous with the shenanigans that are going on, or whatever. I just couldn't be a part of that. And therefore, there are a lot of people who have come up with, well, we're going to come up with the cool church, the worldly church. So you can just be as worldly and ungodly as you want, we're just gonna love everybody; it's the rock concert, you know, that type of thing. So frankly, what that ends up doing is unchurching the church in a lot of ways. It's a very dangerous thing, and evangelical pragmatism has played a big role in that.

Cory Piatt  
You mentioned Matthew seven earlier, quoting verse 21 of that chapter, "'Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord" will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father, who is in heaven, will enter.'" So just as you're saying, the Lord has clearly revealed this as his will to us under the New Covenant, to partake of these means of grace.

Dave Harrell  
He's made us a new creature in Christ, right? The old things passed away, the new things have come. So the very disposition of our soul is such that we long to worship. We crave the glory and the greatness of God. We crave his Word. We thrive on the nourishment of rich Bible exposition. We want to sing praises to his name with the saints. I mean, that's just who we are. And so when you say you're a Christian, and you don't like any of that? Now I can understand if it, if it's some boring or some ridiculous thing, I get that, but when there are those kinds of churches around and you don't want anything to do with it, then I have every reason to question if you've truly been born again.


Cory Piatt  
Yeah, so clear. Just a brief, maybe a side to this conversation, you know, we see all of these imperatives in the New Testament that we understand we're to obey as Christians, not in order to merit our salvation, but as a result of it. There are those in, say, the Hebrew roots movement, or those who would argue that we need to be under the Mosaic law; that they would say, well, you're not doing the will of the Father because you're not worshiping on the Sabbath, for example. How would you respond to that argument that we need to be under the Mosaic Law and then maybe help us understand clearly what is the will of the Lord that we're to be submitted to.

Dave Harrell
So we got what, three hours to answer that. But yeah, just real simply that's based on, and I just want to say this kindly, a gross misunderstanding of the New Covenant.  Let me put it this way: the Old Covenant was abrogated by the New Covenant. Jesus came. He fulfilled the law. The law was given to the Israelites to basically demonstrate to them that they could not keep the law; that they needed a Savior. All of those things pointed to him. So my mind goes to, for example, Colossians chapter two, where it says, "Therefore, let no one act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath, these things which are a mere shadow of what is to come, but the substance belongs to Christ." Soeverything in the Mosaic law - including the Sabbaths - all of those things were the shadow that pointed to Christ. Why am I going to focus on the shadow when we have the substance? I mean, when I see you walking down the street and you've got a shadow, because of the sun, I don't look down there and focus on your shadow, I talk to you. I know there are people who who really focus on what did you call it? The Hebrew Roots thing. I've heard of some of that, but, you know, I was thinking of how the Sabbath was given for given for Israel in the Decalogue in Exodus 20, and he gave it through Moses. But I remember - and I always think about this when I hear this subject come up - I mean, there are 613 rules, okay, in the Mosaic Law, and which ones of them are you not going to keep now? And how do you decide? I mean, how do you arbitrarily choose to do some of these, but you don't do some of those. And, and I was thinking of some passages here how the Mosaic Covenant as a rule of life ended with the death of Christ, because he fulfilled the demands of the covenant, and he established the new covenant with his blood, he says in Luke 22. And by the way, when you think about the Sabbath, Jesus violated the Sabbath; he picked grain with the disciples. And of course, that really wasn't something that they couldn't do, I don't think under the Mosaic law, but the Pharisees had come up with that extra regulation. And he healed on the Sabbath, oh, boy, you can't do that. But we read, for example, in Romans 10:4, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. He also said that Christ became our peace in Ephesians 2:14, "by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances." Hebrews 8:13, "When He said 'a new covenant,' He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear." And since the Mosaic Covenant was given to Israel alone, and since Christ brought an end to it in his death, Christians are not under the laws of the Mosaic Covenant. We're just not. Romans 6:14, "For sin will have no dominion over you since you are not under law, but under grace." Galatians 5:18, "But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law." It's interesting too, the new covenant that abrogates the Old Covenant really did away with the Sabbath as well, because believers are never required to observe the Sabbath in the New Testament; it's interesting, we never see that, no command. In fact, Paul rebuked the Galatians for thinking that God expected them to observe the Sabbath in Galatians four. And even at the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15, the Gentiles were never required to obey the Sabbath.

Dave Harrell  
And so, it's a matter of Christian liberty. But I wanted to close my thoughts on that, because Romans 14 is an important passage on this. There are people who, for whatever reason, are very committed to all of these things. And I want to be very careful with them. I want to be kind to them, because what we read in in Romans 14, beginning in verse three, "Let not him who eats regard with contempt him who does not eat" - remember he's talking about food offered to idols - "and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats, for God has accepted him. Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. One man regards one day," like the Sabbath, "one man regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Let each man be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to the Lord. For no one lives for himself, and not one dies for himself; for, if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord's."

Dave Harrell  
The point is, if somebody is really committed to keeping the Sabbath and some of these types of things, you know, I don't want you to violate your conscience. You feel you need to do that, but don't tell me or others that that is what God requires. And so often this falls into legalism. It's some kinds of a works righteousness type of a system, and you really want to guard against that. And I've seen that a lot in this, in this whole movement.

Cory Piatt  
Okay, so the those 613 I think you said...

Dave Harrell  
I think that's right. I don't remember for sure.

Cory Piatt  
Which were a part of the Mosaic Covenant are done away with, Christ fulfills them, they were types and shadows that are fulfilled in him. And then now, with the ratification of the new covenant in Christ's blood, we're now under the New Covenant. And so what would you say, just simply, we are to submit to law wise because, you know, Paul refers to the law of Christ in Galatians, for example.

Dave Harrell  
All of those are consistent with, with what we would see summarized in the Decalogue. And ultimately, the Decalogue was a summary of the supreme law - to love the Lord you got with all your heart, mind, soul and strength, love your neighbor as yourself.  There's all kinds of things that the Lord would have us do in the New Testament, but we don't see any place that you need to obey the Sabbath. And if you don't, this is what's going to happen. And here's how you need to obey the Sabbath.

Dave Harrell  
We do want to guard ourselves against being judgmental to those who, because of weak faith, according to Romans 14, kind of bind themselves to that. And that's why, in that day, it was hard for the Jews that had obeyed all these things and made the Sabbath. Now, all of a sudden, the Christians are worshiping on the first day of the week; and it was hard for them to do that. They felt like they needed to keep the Sabbath. I don't want you to violate your conscience, because once you start violating your conscience, that's a slippery slope. But if you look at the early church fathers - Eusebius, you look at Augustine, or whatever - you you'll see that they all believed in the early church. They all understood that the New Covenant abrogated the Old Covenant, and that the Sabbath was over with, and that now we worship on the first day of the week.

Cory Piatt  
All right, excellent brother. Well, this has been so helpful, man. I've got one more question. Let's end on a pastoral note. Let's speak to that pastor out there who's laboring to be faithful to the Lord and His Word, and yet he's discouraged, because oftentimes the responses from those who are outside, and sometimes even within the walls of his church, are critical and condemning. What would you say to that that pastor?

Dave Harrell  
Well, I've never had that happen before. First thing I would say is, welcome to the battle. I mean, you know, this is war. Ministry is war. I mean, it's just the reality of it, and you have toput on the whole armor of God and all of those types of things. But you know what I would encourage him to do - and by the way, I work with various pastors and church leaders from different parts, frankly, of the world, several of them right now that I'm dealing with - and some of them have exactly those issues; and my word to them is  to remember that even Paul realized, with his thorn in the flesh - what the Lord told him - that you you're going to find strength in weakness and just trust the Lord. Just stay faithful to His word. Love your people. Love the Lord and be gentle to those that are mean spirited. Sometimes you have to, just like we were talking, sometimes with the unruly, you got to confront them. And some more so than others but just stand firm to the truth and love those sheep, even the ones that are biting you and kicking you. God's up to something in them and he will take care of them over time; and make sure you've got a good group of men around you that can help circle the wagons if need be. It kind of depends upon the situation, but the Lord has called us to be faithful, and if we just stay faithful to our ministry, God is going to bless that.

Cory Piatt  
Okay, yeah. Well, that's a great word to end on, brother. Let me close with the apostle Paul in First Corinthians two here, "When I came to you brethren, I did not come with superiority of speech or of wisdom, proclaiming to you the testimony of God. For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified. I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling, and my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power. So that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men but on the power of God."

Dave Harrell  
Amen. Thank you.

Cory Piatt  
Hello and welcome to the Fortified podcast with author and pastor, Dr David Harrell, we're so glad that you're here. Well, how can you know for certain that you have been called to the ministry? The world around us may offer several qualifications to look for in a prospective pastor or church leader. Are they a dynamic speaker? Do they know how to command a room? Do they have a charismatic personality? Now, although none of these qualities are bad necessarily, they fall woefully short of the qualifications given by God and His Word for shepherds of his flock. Well, on today's episode, we're going to look at some of those biblical ways to evaluate whether or not we have been called to the ministry, and we're going to seek to understand how being convinced of this calling is essential for longevity and joy in Christ's service. As always, we pray you're edified by this conversation, and we hope you enjoy.
 
 
Cory Piatt  
Dave, this episode today comes courtesy of chapter three of your book, Seven Key Principles for Effective Ministry. And the third key principle that you're walking through in that chapter is that we must be convinced of His calling. And just as a brief aside, at the beginning here, brother, I was so appreciative of the clarity that you bring to this subject. I think oftentimes when we think of God's calling in our lives, sometimes there's a degree of mysticism that accompanies that. You know, we think there has to be some kind of a sign or a vision or some extra revelation in order to know that we've been called to the ministry. And so I'm excited to hear you walk through with the biblical clarity and wisdom that you always bring to these subjects, the ways that we can know for certain that God has called us. And in the chapter, you actually walk through five tests that I wonder if we could just use as a kind of outline for the podcast here. And those tests are: does this individual have a longing to know and serve Christ? That's number one. Number two: a sense of urgency to preach the gospel. Three: a pervasive feeling of inadequacy. Four: a burden to shepherd the flock, and finally, five: a public confirmation of spiritual gifts, character and abilities. So brother, if it works for you, let's just walk through those. So starting with test number one: a longing to know and serve Christ. It seems like that would go without saying for a minister of the gospel. Why? Why did you think it important to include that as the first primary test for knowing whether or not you've been called?
 
Dave Harrell
Well, certainly, one of the main reasons is because of what Scripture says - and I'll elaborate on that in a moment - but it's so different than what I've heard people say before. "Yeah, you know, I finally surrendered to preach." "You know, I finally surrendered to the ministry." "I was fighting it tooth and nail, but finally God did something mysterious or mystical and now here I am." And that's just not at all consistent with what we see in Scripture and certainly the testimony of faithful men down through the ages. This idea, a longing to know and serve Christ. You stop and think about it, if that's not there, why are you doing this? There's so many other things a person could do, but I remember one of the key texts that I used in this chapter is in Colossians one, verse, 25 Paul says, "Of this church I was made a minister according to the stewardship from God bestowed on me for your benefit, so that I might fully carry out the preaching of the word of God." And so, a man understands that God's at work in his heart here; that God's calling him to do this, but he is going to do it because he loves Christ. You stop and think, for example, of the apostle Paul and his conversion, and his understanding, obviously, of all that Christ had done for him, and that certainly motivated him to want to honor the Lord in preaching the gospel. And even when you look at the qualifications for an elder, for example, First Timothy three, that if any man aspires for these things - the idea of straining every fiber of your being to honor Christ in this way - he desires a good thing. And there's the passion; there's the longing to honor Christ. But all of that is rooted in an overwhelming sense of gratitude and humility, knowing what Christ has done for you; and so that's got to be at the very heart. And I fear many young men in particular go into pastoral ministry because they're enamored with the office more than Christ. They're kind of excited about the romance of what it is to be a pastor. And they kind of see themselves in the pulpit, and they kind of see themselves as the next John MacArthur or whoever. And that's typically not going to be the case. Rather than being so consumed with what Christ has done, like Isaiah in Isaiah six, who saw the glory of the Pre-Incarnate Christ seated upon his throne and he was just overwhelmed by it - "Woe is me! I'm going to die" - basically, is what he said. And then the Lord said, "who's going to go for me?" "Well, here I am, send me."  And why would he do that? Well, it's because he knew who Christ was, and he loved him. He was overwhelmed by the glory of who he really is, and certainly that was the motivation then for - I'm off on Isaiah six here - but you remember, in Isaiah six, the Lord went on to basically say, look, nobody's going to listen to you, only just a small remnant. And he says, "how long?" Well, he tells them basically, all throughout your ministry, but there will be a small remnant. Well, how could a guy give himself to that unless he had seen the glory of Christ, unless he loved Christ? And that's why it's so important for a man to have a longing to know Christ and just have an insatiable appetite to be with him, as Paul said, “everything else is rubbish compared to the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord." So that has to be the motivation.
 
The same thing would happen with Jeremiah's ministry. Remember, it was like nobody listened to him. And Ezekiel, same type of thing. How could they go on? How could Peter go on? Knowing that he was going to be crucified at the end of his life? Well, the answer is: he loved Christ, and he knew who he was. And that has to be at the very core of what motivates a man to give his life to serve Christ as his under shepherd. If that's not there - and you've got to be honest about that - if that's not there, then you need to do something else.
 
Cory Piatt  
Okay, that's so helpful. Really a call to evaluate your own motivation in ministry. You have this quote from a Scottish pastor, Maurice Roberts, in the book that was very convicting. I'm gonnaget your thoughts on this. He says, "The believer is in spiritual danger if he allows himself to go on for any length of time without tasting the love of Christ and savoring the felt comforts of the Savior's presence. When Christ ceases to fill the heart with satisfaction, our souls will go in silent search of other lovers.” Like the applause of men, for example. What are some warning signs that we should look out for, Dave, to know whether or not this is happening in our own heart or in the heart of maybe a fellow elder or someone who's in our care?
 
Dave Harrell  
I mean, there could be so many things that distract us from continuing to pursue holiness in the heart and commune with the Lord and so forth. And by the way, one of the things that you'll see happening, if you're getting pulled - which can happen to any of us - your passion for the word will diminish. Your burden for the lost will diminish. Your prayer life will diminish. Just the overwhelming sense of joy that you have when you're in intimate communion with the Lord on a regular basis, and you know you're serving Him, and you're experiencing all the blessings that he just lavishes upon you - I mean, when you see those things waning, then something else is going to be filling the void, and you're going to be distracted with family, with the things of the world, with hobbies, with compromise. I mean, there's so many things out there that are appealing to the flesh that draw you away from really knowing Christ personally and being intimately involved with him through the study of the Word, through your prayer life, and just through serving him. I can tell you firsthand, if you want to know what will drive you to Christ, just get serious about shepherding, because it will be painful, it will be difficult, and you will have no place to run. Your wife will not be enough. Your friends will not be enough. You will only find joy and satisfaction and peace and power in Chris. Isn't that what, what Paul went through with the thorn in the flesh; that power is perfected in weakness. If you find yourself being more devoted to things that are pleasing to man than pleasing to the Lord, if you find yourself getting distracted with all of the stuff out there, the culture and all of the technology, and you're trying to gain a crowd - whatever it is - that's when your heart is secretly pursuing other lovers, as Maurice Roberts put it.
 
Cory Piatt  
That's wonderful. And then, as a follow up, practically, I think you've addressed this some, but practically, how have you avoided, personally, that tendency of simply going through the motions of ministry? Doing these things because I'm a pastor and I know I'm supposed to have these conversations; this service looks a certain way. How do you avoid going through the motions in ministry all the while steadily being numbed to the greatness and the glory of Christ?
 
Dave Harrell  
One of the most important things is discipline. You know, Paul told Timothy, you've got to discipline yourself for godliness. And by discipline, I'm referring to - not out of duty necessarily; studying the Word and basically being in prayer as you do it; but certainly, there is a desire component to that - but there is a sense in which, you know what, I'm tired. There are other things I need to be doing, but this is my time to be with the Lord, and I want to do this. It's not only the discipline - but it also works best for me early in the morning to just spend time with the Lord. Reading his word, periods of prayer. It always goes together because, "My sheep hear My voice and they follow Me." I want to hear his voice because I'm following him. And soit's that personal pursuit of holiness in terms of being in intimate communion with the Lord in prayer, because I'm dealing with people all the time and I'm shepherding people. I see good, I see bad, I see horror. And so all of these things bring me to a place where, "Lord, I’ve just got to sit down. I've just got to talk with you. Please help and please encourage. And thank you for what you're doing here. Thank you for what you're doing there. Oh, thank you for this passage of Scripture."
 
And so it's that, but it's also the discipline of exegeting scripture and constantly being in the Word; constantly learning, knowing that that at least a couple of times a week, but certainly on Sunday morning, I've got to be the Lord's spokesman, and I absolutely want to know what the text says, and I don't want to compromise that. And so by staying in the Word, you're staying in communion with the Lord, and you just find that those things are so much more satisfying than all of the things - the temporary, fleeting pleasures of the world. Now that's not to say you don't do other things too, obviously. I love to shoot sporting clays and so probably once a week I'm going to be out at the range. I love doing certain things like that. And you've got to have those things. And I love watching a good old cowboy movie. I mean, we’ve all got that too, but you've got to stay disciplined in terms of your own personal pursuit of holiness, your own study of the Word. And then, along with that, the commitment to shepherd your people to be involved in their life. And then also, for me, I always have to guard myself because there is a tendency in my flesh for me to want people to like me. And I mean, part of that is good, it's not like my I don't want anybody to like me, when people say, "Oh, I know you." I always, always wonder, are you in the long line or the short line? But there's, there's even times when I'm preparing for an exposition on Sunday morning where I think, oh boy, I don't know if I should use that example, because that's probably going to offend a lot of people. And so I have to be careful, because a lot of times I'll say no; people need to hear that. People need to hear that. So you just have got to guard yourself, and the Lord just blesses that. I mean, it's the whole issue of, when you walk by the Spirit, you won't carry out the desires of the flesh, right? And you'll manifest the fruit of the Spirit. And that's all of the blessings that are a part of being in intimate fellowship with the Lord. And as you enjoy those things, I mean, who wants this other stuff?  And you have discernment to walk away from that stuff. And frankly, you just don't have the desire for it.
 
Cory Piatt  
Right, that's excellent. I think you use the phrase in the book “cultivating the garden of your own soul and communion with the Lord before you can actually turn and minister to other people.”
 
Dave Harrell
Yeah, that sounds like something I might have said, That's exactly it. You've got to do that. And if you care for the garden of your own soul the weeds aren't going to grow up and it's just going to bear fruit. I mean, there's a physical analogy there.  I'm not much of a gardener, I like eating what's in the garden, but I don't like messing with the weeds and all but I understand the principle in my own heart. And I have to guard my heart. So there's a discipline to all of that, but it's a joyful discipline. There's a benefit from that. You have to discipline your body in terms of how you treat it physically. If you don't ever do anything, you sit around and eat pizza, drink sodas and watch TV while you're eating Cheetos off your chest, you're going to ruin your body. And so you have to guard how you treat your body - what you eat. It's the same thing. Spiritually, you really have to discipline yourself in that.
 
Cory Piatt
That's helpful. So the first test that we need to use in order to evaluate whether or not we've been called to the ministry is: do we have a longing to know and serve Christ? Let's look at the second one, test number two: a sense of urgency to preach the gospel. Now I'd love to have you elaborate on that and specifically, why the word urgency? Why not boldness or clarity? Why did you choose that word, urgency, to preach the gospel?
 
Dave Harrell
Because the souls - the eternal destiny of the souls - of men and women are at stake, and there are people in desperate need of the gospel, and you never know when they're going to get the phone call that they've got a terminal illness, or you get the phone call that the person has passed away from an accident, or whatever it is, and there's just an urgency that there are people out there who need to hear the truth of the gospel and so it's not something that I can have a cavalier attitude towards. This is very, very serious. We're at war, right? We are at war,and we look at all the satanic stuff around us. I mean, goodness gracious, just the satanic death cult known as the Democrat Party is enough right now, just to make your blood boil, to see how Satan has used these people to destroy our country. You see the rise of Islam in Europe, and you see there's an urgency here. We're at war and, you know, as Paul told Timothy, a good soldier doesn't allow himself to get entangled in the things of the world. I mean, there's a battle here. Yes, so it's urgent. You've got to be vigilant. You've got to be diligent. You've got to be consistently involved in the battle. You just can't lay back and rest. And I'll tell you, the other thing is, as I get older, I find that urgency increasing, because I don't have as long to live as I did when I was your age, you know? And so it's like, Lord, I want to do everything I can so that when I cross the finish line, there is nothing left. I'm collapsing over the finish line, right? It's just a burden for people's souls. And what a joy it is to see people come to genuine saving faith in Christ and to see them grow in Christ. It's one of the most exhilarating things in the world to see that happen. And what a heartbreak it is to see people squander their life away and turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside unto myths and be deceived by things that are absolutely contrary to God's Word and His will; things that are just utterly idiotic, like the whole woke thing that so many ostensibly evangelical people will embrace. It's justinconceivable that that can happen. So there is an urgency, because there's a battle.
 
Cory Piatt  
Amen. Keeping that eternal perspective in mind, I think of Revelation 14 contextually. Obviously, he's talking about those who've taken the mark and worship the beast. But he says, “’If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God's wrath poured full strength into the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.’” That's the eternal destiny of those who aren't, who have not trusted in Christ for salvation.
 
Dave Harrell  
Incomprehensible, heartbreaking. Yeah, I've been around a lot of death and dying, and I've been around people who do not know the Lord, and I I've seen them pass into eternity screaming. I've heard that I I've seen them, all of a sudden, begin to scream in horror and reach out and grab things. And you ask anybody in hospice, who works in hospice; I remember vividly, on several occasions in the palliative care unit at Vanderbilt, all of a sudden you'll hear this unbelievable screaming and racket and things falling, and I remember one time asking the nurse, “What's going on?” And her response is, “That's someone trying to cling to life.” And soI'm saying not only on the basis of Scripture, but on the basis of personal experience, it's a horrible thing to see people pass into eternal torment. And if you love people, that's going to be a driving force in your life, right? And a pastor better have that, or he doesn't need to be a pastor. He doesn't need to be a shepherd.
 
Cory Piatt
Amen, let me ask you this, Dave, in reading through these tests that you've given in the chapter, it struck me that most of these characteristics ideally should be true of every believer, not just those who are pastors. I wonder if you could speak to the congregation. Now, is this urgency to preach the gospel, something which should just be true of those who are in vocational ministry, or is this a mandate for the entire body?
 
Dave Harrell  
It's a mandate for the whole body. I mean, it's a unique calling and gifting that God gives to a pastor, right? Ephesians four talks about that. We have to equip the saints for the work of the ministry. I mean, there's uniqueness to that particular office, that particular calling; but all you have to do is look at all of the one anotherings in Scripture, right? You know that applies to everybody. The Great Commission is for everybody. That's what we need to be about. Andwhen you truly understand the gospel and what Christ has done for you, you're going to do that. It's going to be an automatic thing. Now you can get lazy and you can, at times, not walk by the Spirit, right? The flesh begins to take over. You can grieve the Spirit - quench the Spirit in your life - and those types of things, but overall, for the believer, they're going to be so excited about what Christ has done for them, that they can't help but have a burden for the lost and share that with other people, and to want to disciple them and whatever degree they can. And that's going to take on a lot of different ways of actually helping people grow in Christ. It's not always Tuesday night at seven. I mean, these are mandates for all of us. We all need to know and love and want to know Christ more. That's just part of it. John 15, “Apart from Meyou can do nothing.” “I am the vine, you are the branches.” You're not going to bear fruit unless you're abiding in me, and so all of these things apply to everyone.
 
And what's fascinating about the body of Christ is we're like cells in a body, organs in the body, we all have different ways of functioning. Our liver is going to do something different than the brain, but we got to have both in order for the body to work properly. So we're members of one another, and we respond to our head, which is Christ and so it's not just one thing does it all alone, we're all a part of this. By the way, you bring up something as I think about it, a lot of times, people feel rather complacent and grow lazy when it comes to evangelism and discipleship, because they see it as well, that's what missionaries, that's what pastors do. That's what the elders do, right? So I'll write a check and let them do that. I was preaching Sunday out of Zechariah seven and I mean, what you see is true religion, as James said in other passages, is you care for the orphans and for the widows, all of those types of things. And so this goes across the board to everyone. It's not just the pastor. So we all need to roll up our sleeves and get serious about ministering to one another, right? And, my goodness, if everybody did that in a church, just think what the Lord would do. But a lot of people, they like to sit up on the top deck and drink a mint julep, so to speak, and let everybody else do all the work. And that's really our culture, isn't it?
 
Cory Piatt  
Yeah, kind of consumer mentality.
 
Dave Harrell  
I'm entitled. I don't need to do this stuff. I'll let somebody else do it, right? So it applies to all of us.
 
 
Cory Piatt  
You brought up Ephesians four. But even when he lists those gifts that Christ has given to the body - pastors, teachers - he's given them to equip the saints for the work of ministry, so recognizing that each member of the body is to be utilizing their giftedness in order to build up the body in love. So in thinking about that urgency to preach the gospel, I was reminded of this Spurgeon quote, maybe you've heard this, “If sinners be damned, at least let them leap to hell over our dead bodies. And if they perish, let them perish with our arms wrapped about their knees imploring them to stay. If hell must be filled, let it be filled in the teeth of our exertions, and let not one go unwarned and unprayed for.” And so that should be the heart of every pastor and believer.
 
Dave Harrell
Absolutely, it really needs to be there. I mean, you just think about our children, don't we pray for our children and for me, grandchildren, and people in the church, I have such a burden for our people in the church. I know we've got people in our church that come every Sunday, and they don't know Christ. And then some of those, you know, they think they do, but there's really no fruit in their life to validate their profession. Matthew seven always comes to mind with that. And so you want to do everything you can to honor the Lord and present the gospel. And again, that is a desire that flows from the sanctifying work of the Spirit in our life.
 
Cory Piatt
Okay, excellent brother. Well, Dave, I wonder if we could go back to this. Could you give us some practical counsel, advice, suggestions on what people, maybe they're on the deck drinking the mint julep. Maybe they're convicted, they want to serve, they just don't know how. What encouragement would you give to those people?
 
Dave Harrell  
That's a great question. First of all, what you want to do is go before the Lord and acknowledge this and ask him to give you some clear direction. And he will do that, but to give you some practical things, there are avenues of ministry that are always available, not only inside the church that you attend, but also in your own community, perhaps even in your own family, and depending upon kind of your area of giftedness and where you feel comfortable, I know, for example, there are a number of older ladies in our church that are absolute prayer warriors, and I interact with them fairly regularly - hey, here's some more things to pray about, because they can't get out and do certain things. We're introducing a new ministry right now in our church, Fathers in the Field. There's an epidemic of fatherless boys, and we're partnering with a ministry, whereby men can come along and mentor with boys between age seven and 17, and our women can help disciple the mothers that have been abandoned by the fathers; the fathers are in prison, or something, they're just not there. So you look for those opportunities.
 
And by the way, the elders need to help provide these things. Also, there's ways that you can look at in your own community, as you pray, “Lord, help me have some opportunities just to get to know some people outside of my comfort zone.” right? One of the things that we found effective is we've had a thing called Sundae Sunday, and it's where we invite neighbors in our community to come over on a Sunday afternoon for a sundae and you know, no agenda. We've gotten to know people that way, or other things that you can do to just to care for people. But you've got to be intentional with it, and that's where most people are uncomfortable, getting intentional and even getting to know people that are already in their sphere of influence. And as you get to know them eventually, they begin to see your love for Christ, and you pray for opportunities for evangelism, for discipleship. And so the point is, you pray for those opportunities, and the Lord will give them to you. And I'm just giving you a few examples, but there's always opportunities all around you that you typically either don't see, or don't want to see, because you're intimidated. My what a ministry people can have with social media, just putting bible verses on social media, those types of things. And so pray about that and ask your shepherds to help you. You know, “I'm trying to figure out where can I serve,” and they can help assess that. And then you can find ways that are very practical. And once you get involved, and you see the affirmation of other people- whether you're driving elderly people to the doctor, you're helping take care of some kids for a mother in need - I mean, there's so many different things. All of those opportunities are typically there, if you will look for them. And so, pray about that, talk with your shepherds and see what God will do.
 
Cory Piatt
That's so helpful, brother. Thank you. Okay, so we've looked at the first two tests, number one: a desire to know and serve Christ. Number two: an urgency to preach the gospel. Let's look at the third test that you lay out in the chapter: a pervasive feeling of inadequacy. What do you mean by that?
 
Dave Harrell
You have to have a pervasive feeling of inadequacy, it's like Paul said, who's adequate for these things, right? There has to be an overwhelming sense that I cannot do this on my own. Yes, I understand the scriptures; yes, I can parse the Greek verbs; yes, I understand theology; yes, I know these things, I've been trained, but Lord, there's so much to pastoral ministry, and it's an overwhelming thing. You don't realize how overwhelming it is until you get into the thick of the battle. And there has to be a sense of, as we were saying earlier, of John 15. Lord, apart from You, I can't do anything. I am desperate here. It's Paul understanding that the reason the Lord had given him the thorn in the flesh is so that strength can be perfected in weakness. And so he says, I'm content with that now, I'll be content with the insults and all the things that come, because ultimately, I'm depending upon you, not on me. I know that when I get up to preach, for example, I'll do everything I can to make sure I have studied and I understand what the text says, and I'm going to communicate it to the very best of my ability. But it's not me, it's not my words, it's not my cleverness that is going to cause a person to truly come to faith in Christ or truly grow in Christ. It's going to be the work of the Spirit, through me, through His Word, that does that. And so I'm always overwhelmed with that sense of inadequacy. Every time when they do the final song and it's time for me to go up to preach, I'm praying as I go up there that the Spirit of God would do what only He can do through me, because I'm not supernatural - none of us are - and if you think that it's going to be your own cleverness or your own jokes or your own examples that you use, or whatever, that's going to change men's hearts, you're fooling yourself. You're living in a fool's paradise. But, it's rather to just humbly say, “Lord, I don't know what else to do here except just communicate what you have said in your Word, to do it with clarity, to do it with conviction, to do it with compassion. But Lord, this is your deal, and I'm comfortable with my weakness here.” And that has to be at the very heart of who we are, otherwise, pride comes before fall. You know, if you think you're going to do this in your own strength, and therefore, you don't really have that heart attitude that manifests itself in the ways like I'm talking about, you're in for a big surprise. Yeah, you may end up with a huge church. There's a big difference between a crowd and a church. And so that's why I put that in there. And you'll see this, you know, in the heart of everyone, in fact, in Scripture and people that I've known.
 
Let me look at an example here that comes to my mind in Ephesians, three. Just listen to what Paul said, I go back to this a lot of times for this reason, “I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesusfor the sake of you Gentiles.”   So you can see what he's sacrificing here, he says, “…if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God's grace which was given to me for you…” So I know that God has called me to do this, and that's going to be a driving force, “…that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief. By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit; to be specific…” And here's what's exciting to him, “…that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in ChristJesus, through the gospel, of which I was made a minister.” He didn't say, “You know what, hey, I think this would be a cool thing to…” No, no, no. He understands that God did a work and made him a minister according to the gift of God's grace. Not according to my high IQ and all of my training. No, no, this is a, “…gift by God's grace which was given to me according to the working of His power. To me, the very least of all the saints.” I mean, there's the inadequacy right? “This grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ, and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages have been hidden in God who created all things; so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places. This was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus.” And he goes on and says, “…in whom we have boldness and confident access through faith in Him.” And he goes on to talk about that. And at the very end, you remember, he says, “Now to Him who is able to do exceedingly abundantly beyond all that we ask or think according to the power that works within us, to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations, forever and ever. Amen.” I mean, it just kind of summarizes all that we've been saying here. That was the heart of the apostle Paul, who was a brilliant guy - had been trained at the highest level - but all of that, as he said, it's rubbish. The key is knowing Christ and the power of his resurrection that works in me as I proclaim the truths of the gospel.
 
Cory Piatt
Okay, that's wonderful, brother. Well, let me ask you this. You say on page 77, quoting Ephesians six here, “Paul was fully aware of his inadequacy and utter dependence upon the Spirit's power. This does not mean he was a wilting lily, afraid to preach. He was utterly fearless in his preaching! But he was humble enough to be suspect of his own spirituality--so much so that he asked the saints at Ephesus to ‘pray on my behalf…that I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak’ (Ephesians6:19-20).” Now I've heard you use that phrase before, Dave, “being suspect of our own spirituality.” What do you mean by that phrase there?
 
Dave Harrell
By that, I mean to be brutally honest with the realities of my own heart, the sinful proclivities in my own heart, the areas of weakness in my own abilities, all of those types of things, you just kind of lump it all up, and again, Lord, apart from you, I can't do anything, right? And so I'm always going to be suspect when I'm feeling like I'm riding pretty high here. You need to be really careful, because there are going to be areas where you're probably not even aware of your own sinfulness and how it's at work. Maybe it's your pride. Maybe you're going to coast for a little bit, because, after all, you've had a couple of hard weeks. I mean, there's just so many things that you have to guard against as you examine your heart; and that's why I'm constantly asking the Spirit of God to show me if there be any sinful way in me; show mewhere I've got a blind spot. And he always does. It’s such a good thing. And sometimes I don't see it right away, and then all of a sudden, it's like, oh my, I sense something going on in me here. “Lord, thank you for showing that to me, help me with this.” I need to guard my heart against those kinds of thoughts or that pursuit, or whatever it might be, and so I'm never going to be content that somehow, I've arrived. And there's a real danger. I've talked with a lot of pastors over the years that have fallen, typically morally, a moral failure; and without fail, they will acknowledge that they got to a point, a place, where they kind of believe that they were kind of at a different level than everybody. You know, I'm kind of up here, and everybody else is kind of down here, and so therefore I don't have to be as concerned about certain things as these people do. And that's a sure sign of pride that is going to cause you to fall.
 
Cory Piatt  
And just so I'm following you, that is no way undermining the assurance that we can have in Christ. If we're his, we're his eternally. But you're giving us insight on how we can evaluate our own heart and put to death the deeds of our flesh.
 
Dave Harrell
Exactly. I'm not talking about salvation. I'm talking about sanctification. I'm not in any way doubting his power to keep me safe. Salvation is all of God's grace. I'm glad you brought that up, because that's not at all what I'm referring to. I'm talking about my own perception of my godliness. You know I'm never as godly as I think I am.
 
Cory Piatt
Yeah, that point about believing our own press. I've heard you say, “we're hopelessly biased.”
 
Dave Harrell
Oh, my that's me. My picture is next to that, wherever you see it. We all can justify and rationalize just about anything, and I just know my own heart, I just have to ask the Spirit of God to help me guard against that. And you know, what's great is, as you grow in Christ over the years, you find that some of the things that used to be a real temptation, they just don't have the power they once did. But then there's other things that can creep in, and so you'll see a decrease in sin, a decrease in desire on certain things, but you've got to be careful that you don't say, “well, therefore now I can coast,” you know? And so you just you have to be suspect of your own spirituality,
 
Cory Piatt  
And man, what a gift to the body of Christ is as well. You quoted from Hebrews three last Sunday, but when he says, “Exhort one another every day, as long as it is called ‘Today,’ lest none of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.” And just that role that we have in one another's lives to guard against blind spots, indwelling sin, that we may not be fully aware of.
 
Dave Harrell  
And boy, there, there's where I have found the incredible gift of a godly wife, because she sees stuff that I wish she couldn't see, and she has such a sweet way of communicating that. Andyou just kind of melt; and it's fascinating to see how the Lord places people in your life that's going to help you. And it's not just your wife, and I know you do, but it’s other friends. You just want to be around other godly men and women, and iron is going to sharpen iron, and sometimes the sparks will fly. It's gonna be good, and the Lord uses that.
 
Cory Piatt  
Excellent, brother. Well, let's turn to our fourth test here. Test number four: a burden to shepherd the flock, you say on page 80, “Because of his compassion for those God has entrusted to him, a faithful pastor will spend his life nurturing, feeding, protecting and leading his flock. He will have a desire to shepherd sheep, not herd goats. While this will take time to develop more fully after a man enters the ministry, his compassion for others must be evident prior to it.” Practically speaking, Dave, what kinds of things are you looking for, in this regard, when evaluating a potential elder or pastor.
 
Dave Harrell
You look for a man that manifests, in his family and in the lives of other people, that that he has a heart for them, that he loves them, that he cares for them, spiritually. And what's fascinating is, sheep will follow a shepherd. And so, you look for a man that has a following, shall we say, with his family, with other people. And you learn over the years to see the types of characteristics that people will gravitate towards spiritually, not necessarily a charismatic personality or whatever. You look for the fruits of the Spirit in a guy, that's what you look for. You will see in a man that really aspires and desires - First Timothy three - you will see that manifested long before he's ordained as a pastor. If that's not already there, then he has no business; it's not like all of a sudden, you're going to get a degree, and now you've got that in your heart, right? And so, you look for those things, is this a man that truly cares for other people, and other people know that? And by the way, the way you will know your spiritual giftedness is by the affirmation you receive from other people, not what you not what you think about yourself. But when you see a man that has others, shall we say, coming to them and following them and you see that man caring for them in various ways, and especially spiritually and speaking into their lives intentionally, then you say, now there's a potential shepherd, yeah? So that's what you have to look for.
 
Cory Piatt
Okay, man, that's helpful. Yeah. In this section, you also discuss the necessity of one-on-onediscipleship, saying that “it's in the context of face-to-face intentional interaction that the Word is best brought to bear upon the practical issues of their lives. In this context, a pastor can really hear their heart, learn about their objections and doctrinal errors, and, most importantly, garner important insights into their personal struggles and sins.” I think sometimes we have a view of discipleship that's a bit more formal in nature - we're going through a book of the Bible, for example - and while that's beneficial, certainly, I wonder if you could elaborate on the value of that more organic discipleship, which we're talking about with shepherding.
 
 
Dave Harrell
Yeah, it really boils down to one anothering, fellowship. By the way, the danger here with a lot of pastors is just seeing themselves as the guy in the pulpit and that's all. He doesn't have time to visit the sick, or he might do a few things, but he doesn't really get to know his people, and he's not accessible to them. That's a real danger, but, but in terms of real discipleship, it's going to require you getting to know people, and that can happen through the various ways that we interact with people. Hey, let's grab a cup of coffee. Hey, would you guys come over? We'd love to get to know you better, or whatever it is, but especially when issues come up, I'm always doing this, whether it's through an email, a phone call or, you know, a cup of coffee or a breakfast or whatever it is; just constantly being involved in people's lives; and they have to know that you really care about them, and they have to know that you're accessible to them. Now, I know a lot of people, they'll say, “Pastor, I know you're really busy, but…” Look, I'm not too busy for you. That's why I'm here, because I love you. I care for you.  Now obviously you’ve got to have limits on it because there are some people that will occupy all of your time, and you got to be careful with that. But if you're really going to shepherd people, you've got to get to know them. The famous saying is “a shepherd has to smell like sheep,” right? And real discipleship is going to come when you sit down with somebody and you're talking about something, something comes up and you say, “Brother, I didn't know you were going through this. It's interesting what God says about that, this particular issue…” and such and such a passage. There's discipleship. You’re speaking into their life. And you just constantly have tohave that kind of mentality when you're dealing with people; that you're there to speak truth into their life, to hear them, to hear their heart and to genuinely care about them. It doesn't mean you can fix them all the time; doesn't mean they're always going to listen to you. Again, that's God's deal. But he has asked me, and you - back to the one anotherings - to be involved with one another and that's what discipleship is all about
 
Cory Piatt
Amen. And just to add to that as well, I think of in Hebrews where we're exhorted to consider the way of life of those who've been placed over us, right? And to follow their example, imitate their faith. And you know, our mutual friend and one of the elders at our church, I’ve learned so much from Jake, not just from what he's taught me in a more formal setting but just watching the way that he lives with his wife and his kids and so that's a tremendous gift from the Lord.
 
Dave Harrell
Absolutely, and I often say, I don't know necessarily that there's a Bible verse that says this, but more is caught than taught. A lot of times you just you see things modeled, and that's why it's important for a pastor and his wife and his family to be, shall we say, accessible, rather thankind of the untouchable. And I've known of a lot of people, especially in larger churches, where they just have never even had a conversation with their pastor. And maybe there's others that help the pastor and I understand that, that’s important too, but I noticed that in our church, years ago, once we got over about 70 people, I couldn't keep up with everybody, because it's not just them, it's their family members. And the tentacles go out long ways and once you get up into several 100, there's just no way that you can get to know everybody and stay involved in everybody's life, but you're accessible to them when they need you, and you've got other people that help care for them, but certainly those that do need you, they need you to look them in the eye, to really hear their heart and to care for them in that way. There's something powerful about face-to-face interaction. The pulpit is one thing, and that's important, but there's got to be that face-to-face interaction with people. That's what I'm talking about there.
 
 
Cory Piatt
Well, brother, I'd love to go back to one thing you mentioned with regard to the limitations. You say on page 84, “If a man considering the pastorate is personally deficient in shepherding his wife and children, he will not make this a priority in his ministry and as a result, forfeit blessing in his life and in his church.” I suspect it's always difficult to balance your pastoral responsibilities with your responsibilities to your family. My question is, how do we think about that balance? And then what counsel would you give to someone who's struggling to serve those entrusted to his care and yet feels as though it's to the detriment of his family?
 
Dave Harrell
Well, that's another whole book, isn't it? Well, certainly you're disqualified if you can't manage your own households. We understand that, but there is a sense in which, especially for a shepherd, whether he's a senior pastor or an elder or whatever, there's always a battle for balance and we have to battle that in every area of our life right down to how many donuts am I going to eat the next night? There's a balance and so what I have learned to do is basically focus primarily, when it comes to really pouring my life into people, focusing primarily on key men, because that's what the Lord did. I mean, he spent most of his time with the 12 and primarily with three of them. So I'm going to pour my life into some of my key men, but then from there, there, I'm going to be accessible to everybody, but I'm not going to sacrifice my family time for all of them. There's only so much that I can do and so I learned to just adjust my time accordingly. And you've always got to be careful, because there's always the VDPs, the “very draining people” that you can spend the rest of your life with them, five hours a day, and they're not going to change. So you just have to fight that balance.
 
But I will also say that when it comes to shepherding, there's never enough time to do everything that needs to be done, and you just learn to live with that. There's always going to be areas where you could say, “I should have spent more time with my kids.” Or you spend a lot of time with them and then say, “I should have done more over here.” I mean, that's just life in a fallen world, right? And you learn to deal with that, but I'm very careful to structure my time on a weekly basis so that I can get everything that's important in.  There are non-negotiables; there's times that I spend with my dear wife and when my kids need me, I’m there. When my little granddaughter - she's the only one that can interrupt me on Friday when I'm in the midst of study - I mean you bend with those things, but there are certain things like when I am absolutely in the vault of study, Thursday, Friday and Saturday, with some exceptions of different things. Okay, it's just non-negotiable because I have to preach the word on Sunday morning. And I think MacArthur called it “the tyranny of the Sunday morning sermon.” You just have to do that. And then I've got certain things I do on Monday, certain things I do on Tuesdays, usually almost every weeknight is filled with something either for family or for other people, so you just learn to structure that. But if you don't structure it, and you don't have areas of prioritization, then you'll find yourself greasing the squeakiest wheel, and you're pulled. You're reactive rather than proactive. And it's great too when you pour your life, and this is taking years, but when you pour your life into other faithful men and other faithful women through them, then you have a whole church full of shepherds, right? And it's so wonderful to hear somebody say, “Boy, I spent time with Cory and Jet, and it was such a blessing; they really spoke into my life.” And I'm thinking, “man, isn't that great?” And then you hear that on multiple occasions, from all the people; that’s how the body is supposed to work. You know, one cell isn't supposed to do all the work, right?
 
Cory Piatt
Okay, well, brother, you've given us some great principles. That's wonderful stuff. Let's look at the last test here to know whether or not we've been called to the ministry. And you alluded to this earlier, but a public confirmation of spiritual gifts, character and abilities. Now we know that in First Timothy three and Titus chapter one, we're given some qualifications for those who are the overseers in the local church. What do you mean by public confirmation of spiritual giftedness?
 
Dave Harrell
That other people have to affirm that this man is indeed gifted in this area. And when I say gifted, I don't mean that he's necessarily gifted with eloquence or gifted with an incredible grasp of Scripture, but he's gifted in terms of being able to communicate the truths of Scripture in such a way as to move the hearts and minds of men and women and boys and girls. So there has to be other people, especially in on the whole ordination process, you've got to have people that certainly understand the great doctrinal truths of scripture to be able to assess - does this guy know his stuff. Is he making up stuff? The old Puritans, you may recall, it was illegal to ascend “the sacred desk” as the pulpit was called, unless you had been ordained by your peers, because they considered the pastor a physician of the soul. And it's just like a physician of the body, they have to go through residency, and they have to be board certified, right? Wouldn't it be great if we could do that with pastors? Because we’ve got so many self-appointed people out there; they have no business being in the pastorate. But other people have to be able to affirm that, yes, this guy is doctrinally sound. But also the rest of the people have to say, “I'm really drawn to that man. There's a presence about that man that makes me feel safe and confident in his care. I can tell that he knows and loves Christ. I see it in how he treats his wife. I see it in how he treats his kids. I see it in how he treats other people.” And sothere's the public affirmation. If you've got people that are undiscerning, and all they're looking at is how loud he could preach and quiver his voice and make jokes and all the stupid stuff that people do. I had some of my black friends telling me that's where the old hoot and holler came in. You've heard, “he's not worth a hoot” or “he's not worth a holler.” They used to judge pastors based on that - he's worth two hoots and a holler if he's really good. And obviously they're being facetious, but there's some merit, that's how some people would judge people. But that what I'm talking about here is the affirmation that other godly people will have towards a man who truly manifests a love for Christ, and you can tell when you hear that man speak that he is speaking the truths of the Word of God and lives are changed because of it. That's what you look for.
 
And by the way, there are times where you know you may think you see that, and then you find out from his wife that not all is what it seems to be. You know Paul talked about. How thatsome men's sins go before them in judgment, and others follow far behind. And sometimes you think, and I've made that mistake, I remember early on, you think, well, this is kind of the best we have here. And you know, we got a little church starting out. We got to have some guys in leadership, and they're not really fully qualified, but they're the best we have. And then later on, you think, oh my what a mistake and you begin to see things and hear things. It's like, oh my word. I can't believe they said that, or they're doing this, or whatever. I think I use this in the chapter, you see how people had a love and a respect for Timothy and others - the deacons in Acts and other places - and so that takes time. That's why we have a Shepherds in Training type of program at Calvary, where young men who are aspiring and desiring to be an elder, we give them an opportunity to participate on the elder board. The elders, first of all, think this looks like a good candidate, but let's give it some time. Let's give them a voice, but not a vote. Let's let them get involved in shepherding. Let's see how they respond to the battle- we got a new recruit here. He's still green. He doesn't know what it's like to take fire yet. And let's see how they do. And we've had some men that say, “Boy, this isn't for me.” And we could see, yeah, this isn't for you. And then others, “this is where I believe God would have me serve.” That's part of a process that we do. There's no third Timothy that says you need to do that, but at some level, you need to do that.
 
Cory Piatt  
There has to be some evaluation. Well, that gets to the last question I wanted to ask you on that end, I know you've spent a lot of years counseling pastors. Say you're speaking to a pastor who perhaps is in a situation like what you described, where he doesn't have…it’s a small church, doesn't have a lot of people to look for with qualified men. Is the encouragement to wait, continue to teach, continue to trust the Lord with that? Or do you try and get the best suited for the position at the time?
 
Dave Harrell  
Yeah, I would say you wait, and you pour your life into some man that you think is a good possibility and you really invest in him. You know, as Paul said, with Timothy, you entrust to those faithful men, these things that you've heard, right? And then you build that person, because otherwise you can run into the same problem that I ran into, really of my own making. It's easy to affirm men prematurely, and then you've created a real problem. But you know, it's really hard for guys in a small church, because you don't have a lot to choose from and so you just have your people trust you, to kind of make those decisions and shepherd the church and then pray that God will gradually raise up men. That's what he did at our church, and it's taken a number of years. But I would go with the latter, not the former of what you just mentioned.
 
Cory Piatt
All right, brother, well, thank you for your insight on this subject, Dave, again, it's so helpful to hear the kind of biblical clarity and maybe demystifying this process of knowing or evaluating whether or not we've been called to the ministry. Again, those five tests that we should look for in an individual: a longing to know and serve Christ, a sense of urgency to preach the gospel, a pervasive feeling of inadequacy, a burden to shepherd the flock, and finally, a public confirmation of spiritual gifts, characters and abilities.
 
This has been so helpful, I wonder if I could end with just a wonderful quote from Spurgeon that you draw out in your book. He says, “Do not enter the ministry, if you can help it… If any student in this room could be content to be a newspaper editor, or a grocer, or a farmer, or a doctor, or a lawyer, or a senator, or a king, in the name of heaven and earth let him go his way; he is not the man in whom dwells the Spirit of God in its fullness, for a man so filled with God would utterly weary of any pursuit but that for which his inmost soul pants.”
 
Well, thank you, brother.
 
Dave Harrell
You’re welcome.
 
Cory Piatt
We'd like to thank you all for joining us for another episode of the Fortified Podcast with author and pastor, Dr David Harrell, and for more of books, resources and sermons, please check out shepherdfire.org. Until next time. God bless you.