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Cory Piatt 

Well, Dave, you begin this chapter with this statement I'd like to read, you say, "Next to my burden for the lost, my greatest sorrow in ministry is the lack of adoration for the majesty and holiness of God among professing evangelicals." You go on to say that "Many Christians are content to live in the swamps of earthly pleasures, rather than the highlands of heavenly promises, preferring to fix their eyes on what is seen that is temporary rather than what is unseen, that is eternal." Dave, as you survey the evangelical landscape out there, what are the reasons that you suspect are behind this lack of adoration for the majesty and holiness of God?

Dave Harrell 

Well, there’s a number of things, but I think at a most fundamental level, it's worldliness. People fail to heed what Paul has commanded in Romans 12 to do, not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, and too many people in evangelicalism have been conformed to this world; and along with that, they do not have a good understanding, and I might say, an awesome understanding, of the character of God. They have not been exposed to good, solid biblical expositional preaching and teaching. They don't read about those things. They don't contemplate those things. And so, rather than being just kind of awestruck over really who God is, they're caught up in the world; and having dealt with hundreds and hundreds of people over the years in ministry, when I deal with those folks that are struggling with some especially some life dominating sin, without fail, I will discover very quickly that they have a very low view of God; a very superficial understanding of the infinite perfections of God, of the glory of Christ and all of those types of things.

Dave Harrell 

They don't read about it, they don't think about it. They don't even have much desire for it. Now, when it comes to the football season or the basketball season or those types of things, oh my, they're all about that, you know. And I'm not trying to knock them, there's a place for all of that too, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, but there's, there's just not an investment on the part of people into really studying the Word, applying the word to their life and avoiding the things of the world that distract them from the glory of God. Along with that, they're not involved that much with ministry, with evangelism, discipleship. You're not involved in the lives of other people. You're just kind of playing church. And so the idea of seeing the majesty and the holiness of God, the glory of God, it's just foreign to most people.

Cory Piatt 

Okay, so there's a number of factors that might be at play in each individual heart, but what would you say are some of those distractions that keep our eyes earth bound, rather than looking and gazing upon the holiness of God?

Dave Harrell 

Well, that that varies according to individuals, but in summary, it would be idols of the heart. Those things that people are obsessed with, maybe even without knowing it. It could be a hobby. Could be entertainment, you know, just whatever, even their own family, their job; and sometimes it's good things and sometimes it's bad things. But the point is, all of life begins to squeeze you into just kind of a worldly, temporal perspective, and so there's not a sense of transcendence. They don't think in those terms. And I mean, even in in many churches today, there's a lack of reverence when you come to church, it's more of almost a party atmosphere. In a lot of churches that I've been to, it's very entertainment oriented. And, you know, I'm not saying that we need to have high church necessarily, even though I think there's a place I think we need to be higher than maybe what we are. For example, I was talking to my son and granddaughter and daughter in law, they were in they were in England for a couple of weeks, and I said, make sure you go to St Paul's Cathedral. And they did, and they just couldn't stop talking about it. Because back in, you know, in those days in the 17th century, I mean, when they built cathedrals, it was to evoke within people a sense of awe, just being overwhelmed. And I'll never forget the first time I went into St Paul's Cathedral there in London, I literally began to weep. I looked up and saw, I mean, for one thing, I think it's 365 feet up to the top of the dome. And there's multiple domes with all this artwork and all of these carvings, and you could hear antiphonal singing up in the lofts. And it was overwhelming and it's fascinating to see how that kind of art in a place like that, along with great music, along with great literature, great preaching, great books that we can read about the glory of God, all of those things evoke within us, just a sense of transcendence when we think about God and his glory. And so we begin to live kind of like, this is a bit of an overstatement, but kind of like Isaiah in Isaiah six, you know, you just begin to see the majesty and the glory of God in things when your mind is dealing with this, more than Hollywood, more than all of the other distractions that are out there.

Cory Piatt 

Amen. So all of these distractions from things that would set our mind on Christ, his holiness. Well, let me ask you this, you make the point which you're elaborating on here, that nothing is transcendent anymore. On Page 136 you say that there even seems to be an "unconscious desperation to erase any line of distinction between the church and the world and between Christians and non-Christians." Even hearing you talk about these ancient cathedrals that were designed to evoke that otherness of who God is. You've mentioned books, resources.... what part or, I guess maybe, what are some ways that we can recover that sense of transcendence within our local churches and in our own Christian lives?

Dave Harrell 

Well, it has to begin in your own heart, with a very, very, very high view of God and that comes from understanding his attributes, and seeing his attributes in Scripture, and seeing his attributes in your life, in your family, so that by the power of the word, I should say, by the power of the Holy Spirit through his Word, we begin to do what we're asked to do, and that is, you know, since we're seated with Christ, we're to set our mind on things above, not on the things of this earth. And so it really begins in your heart, through the in-depth study of the Word. And it's not just your study, but it's also hearing other great expositors, for example, reading other people. I mean, you can't help but have a sense of the majesty of God when you read some of the Puritans, for example, and even listening to Spurgeon, listening to other great expositors or reading about them.

Dave Harrell 

That is so different from evangelical pragmatism that has brought so much superficiality into the church, right? You know, the idea that somehow, we've got to become like the world in order to win the world? And in fact, the other day we went down to Florida for a little vacation and coming back, I noticed that the hotel there was this group of young people and some adults with them, and they all had the same T shirt. And I looked at their busses out there and it said, "The Blue Jeans Church." That was the name of the church, "The Blue Jeans Church." And I thought, well, my, that's an interesting priority. I mean, it just kind of says, what I don't think you want it to say, because the emphasis there is very man centered, rather than God centered. And so worship becomes man centered rather than God centered, but you're not going to recover this unless you get serious about it in your own heart, and then you begin to see the majesty and the glory of God, not only from the pages of Scripture, but you see it in history. You see it in the past. You see it in the present. You see kind of where things are going as you study Bible prophecy, for example, right? Maybe a silly little example, but it is very true for me. Just recently, I found out I was going to be a great grandfather. As I was thinking about that and talking with my dear granddaughter about it, I was reminded just of the glory of God and what's going on in inside of her. Of course, we got to see the picture, you know, that isn't that amazing? And I was thinking of, I remember reading that seven hours after conception - when the two cells begin to differentiate - in seven hours, those first two cells that differentiate become the brain and the spinal cord. Now, I mean, when you understand that you can't help but worship God who is the creator of that. Moreover, and I was thinking of this, and we even talked about it there, there's a thing at conception when the sperm and the egg actually unite, and there is conception; it's called fusion. And now, through the use of microscopes, they can see what's called a a zinc spark, which is a little flash of light when that happens.

Dave Harrell 

And so I'm just saying, when you think about the glory and the majesty of God, and you begin to understand who he is as the creator, and then when you look at just life, and you see a grandchild that's in your granddaughter's womb, and you think about that, you give God glory. You can't help but do that. And you begin to see it everywhere. I have my devotional time on my front porch, typically, when the weather's good, and I see the birds, I see the trees. I see, you know, there's always the same group of crows that come, and I just watch God's creation. And so my point in all of this is when you have a sense of awe of who God is, that has been basically instilled within you through an understanding of Scripture by the power of the Spirit, then you begin to see his glory and his majesty everywhere, and it gives you a sense of reverential awe.  That's why I often refer to God as the uncreated Creator, the self-existent, preexistent, uncreated, creator of the universe. The one who is the sustainer of all things, and the Redeemer, the consummator of all things. And so anyway, a high view of God that comes out of these types of things is what's missing, and there's a sense of a cavalier attitude towards God.

Cory Piatt 

And wouldn't you say, as well, when we see instances where people are confronted with the glory of God in Scripture, far from being cavalier or superficial, there is an exposure of sin.

Dave Harrell 

 Absolutely, that's it. So even thinking about what you just said, even in Isaiah six he asked, who's going to go for me? And Isaiah said, "Here am I, send me." And he basically went on to say that, okay, but nobody's really going to listen to you, just very few. And you think, what would sustain a guy to minister all of his life knowing that the judgment of God is on the people and most of them aren't going to listen. I come back to the primary thing that drove him, which would have been the same thing that drove Peter to minister - knowing that he was going to be crucified at the end of his life - what drove them was a soul terrifying vision of the holiness of God, the glory of God. They saw it. That's what has to drive believers. And when it does, then there's a sense of transcendence. For example, when you when read, it's like, this is the Word of the living God. This isn't just a book, and I need to learn some of this so I can be the star in the Sunday school class. And I think I probably say somewhere in that chapter that many people study scripture to know the Word of God, rather than to know the God of the word. And so anyway, back to wherever we were with that, there's no transcendence anymore.

Cory Piatt 

Okay, in addressing what you just said about the improper motivations that we often have, even in these spiritual disciplines, we do it to be the star of the Sunday school class, rather than to grow in our intimacy with our Lord. How would you go about recognizing that temptation and rooting it out and killing that sin when it comes. How would you go about seeing that?

Dave Harrell 

Yeah, the first thing that I encourage people to do is to earnestly pray that the Spirit of God would help you see it; would bring conviction to your heart, and that's where we'll probably get into this, maybe not today, maybe the next time. You got to begin to get rid of the idols in your heart, because what's happening is you're worshiping things other than the Lord your God. You may not see it, but you are. You're obsessed with these things over here that are eternally insignificant, and they bring temporary joy. They promise way more than they can deliver. I mean, that's what false idols do. So the first thing you've got to do is, is pray that the Spirit of God will bring conviction and help you see those idols that need to be deposed. Also, pray that he would give you a greater appetite to really get serious about learning who God is. Again, in dealing with people, with serious issues in their life, we can kind of set their presenting problem aside and many times I will say, you know, let's talk just a little bit about how you see God. What are some of the attributes of God that really impact your heart. It's amazing to hear how superficial their answers will be. You know, they'll talk some about the love of God, but not much about his holiness. They really don't understand the holiness, the otherness of God.  Most people don't understand the sovereignty of God. I mean, you've got whole denominations that don't understand that, and they don't want to know that. You know, they see God as kind of a helpless deity pacing the throne room of heaven, biting his nails, hoping that people will respond to an altar call. I mean, that's kind of how they see God, and they don't understand some of the great doctrines. I will ask them often, things like, help me understand just kind of who you are, in terms of your perspective of salvation. For example, what is what does it mean to be born again? The doctrine of regeneration. Most people, they really don't know, and they've taught Sunday school class. I've talked with pastors that don't understand these things. Talk to me about calling, about faith, about justification, sanctification, you know, all those great soteriological things. And I'm not saying you've got to be a theologian here, but my goodness, they have such a superficial understanding of the glorious doctrines in Scripture that basically manifest - not basically - they do manifest the glory of God. Yeah, you just see it everywhere. I mean, you see his glory, for example, in the atonement - the glory of the Father, the glory of the Son, the glory of the Holy Spirit. And it's manifested in so many different ways. It's just overwhelming, but for a lot of people they never really thought about it that much.

Cory Piatt 

Man, even to your point that not everyone's, you know, called to be a theologian, RC had that book, "Everyone's a Theologian."

Dave Harrell 

Yeah, that, yeah, it's great, isn't it?

Cory Piatt 

He points out that you know that, that you're actually formulating perspectives about who God is, and the question is whether or not they're informed by Scripture. When you think about soteriology, how someone is saved, I can't think of a more practical thing to understand for your own walk with the Lord and your own encouragement in a fallen world. Augustine had that great quote, He said, "How can the Christian know that God won't stop loving him? Because there was never a time when God started loving him." And man, just the assurance that comes from understanding, you know, these ideas of predestination, which is talked about in Ephesians one and other places. It's immensely encouraging. And so yeah, everyone is, in a sense, a theologian in that way.

Dave Harrell 

And when you learn these things and you meditate upon these things, then you are, shall we say, forced to contemplate the infinite perfections of the person and the work of Christ. And that just leads to worship, because you just come away being overwhelmed, with just a sense of breathless adoration for who he is, for what he's done for you, what he has done is doing and will do. My point with all of this is, these types of things are typically missing with the average evangelical, and they don't hear much about these things coming from the pulpit. Certainly not the types of things they're going to read very much. You'll see some of it in some great lyrics of hymns. I like some of the new hymns that are out, some of the some of the Getty stuff has really good lyrics that kind of concentrate these truths and help people to think about them. But for the most part, these things are missing, and that's why... isn't this chapter "Committed to One End?" The one end is to present every man mature in Christ. And that's not going to happen apart from the first part of the verse that we proclaim him, admonishing every man, teaching every man with all wisdom, so that we can present them complete in Christ. So there's got to be the proclamation of who he is - all of his attributes, all that he's doing, the great doctrines - we have to admonish them. Which means to counsel, to instruct, to warn so they see how all of these things work together. We have to teach them. There's the practical application of great doctrinal truths. I mean, all those things come together. It's part of the Great Commission.  We're to teach them "whatsoever things that I have commanded you," and so forth.

Dave Harrell 

So when these things are missing, the ultimate outcome of that is a very shallow view of God. There's no transcendence, there's no sense of reverential awe. And so people come to church and the most important thing for them is what's the music going to be, and is the coffee any good? I've been in some of these churches where nobody even has a Bible. And then I hear what's coming from the pulpit. And I think, in fact, there, there's one big mega church; somebody sent me the advertisement they are spending several months now exegeting Hollywood movies. How do you get there? There's no transcendence anymore, everything is casual, informal, cavalier, superficial, cotton candy; and when you have that kind of a mindset - not if, but when - life falls apart, you don't have a good, solid foundation; and that's where I see the difference. You know, I've dealt with so many people on their deathbed, and unsaved people and saved people. And my what a difference. Oh, my goodness, it's night and day. When, when life falls apart, if you don't have a good, solid foundation of understanding, the great truths of scripture and the character of God, just the nature of God, and if that doesn't impact you at the very core of your being so that you literally live in the light of his glory, then you're going to have a tough time. You're going to have a tough time. That's why I love...the old theologians used to call Yahweh, the four letters that we translate LORD, you know capital L, O, R, D - the ineffable tetragrammaton.

Cory Piatt 

Unpack that.

Dave Harrell 

Ineffable is an old word. We don't use it very much. It means "too wondrous to utter from the lips." And tetra is "four" Gramatan letters, the two wondrous to utter from the lips four letters; and that really gets to the heart of this. I mean, this is Yahweh. I mean, this is the Lord our God. This is our Creator. This is the one that we're going to stand in his presence, either blameless with great joy or guilty with great terror. It's either going to be triumph or terror. And so these are the types of things that, sadly, are missing so much in evangelicalism. And that's why I think the quote that I had, maybe what I said at the beginning of the chapter was, it's just a real burden. I mean, I have a burden for the lost, but I have burden for evangelicals too, that that just live in the shallows. They're just superficial, and they don't understand these things. You hear them start talking about God and, I mean it’s like, my goodness, it's second and third grade stuff. And so we've got to do everything we can, to proclaim him, to admonish him, teach so we can present every man you know mature in Christ.

Cory Piatt 

Okay, let's get, get on in the episode towards that end. Thank you for reining me in. We're dealing with chapter six of your book, seven key principles for effective ministry. The sixth principle you say, is that we must be committed to one end. You're drawing from Paul in Colossians, one that that we proclaim Christ, laboring to present everyone mature in Christ. I've got a question about a text that you reference in the early part of this chapter, Matthew 6:19, and 20, which says, "Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal, but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven." Dave, as we seek to present others mature in Christ, what does that mean, practically, to lay up treasures in heaven?

Dave Harrell 

Yeah, well, I mean, Jesus is speaking there, and it's primarily an emphasis on what we do with our finances as good stewards. You know, we're investing in kingdom purposes, but it would include our time and our talents, as well as our treasures. And the idea is, don't just live for this earth. I mean, all of these things are passing away. The things of this world are passing away. In Second Corinthians four we read about how the things that are seen are temporal, the things that are unseen are eternal. And so basically, what he's saying there is, invest in the future. Invest in the kingdom. You know, live in light of eternity. Don't just spend all of your time and all of your talent and all of your treasure on the things of this earth that are going to pass away. Everything that you see is going to pass away. It's the things that are unseen that are important, and that is our relationship with the living God, and what we do for him, how we honor him. You know, in our life, that's where you get your return on your investment. You know, don't invest in things that will burn up here.

Cory Piatt 

So I've heard one pastor say that there's two things that are eternal: the word of God and the souls of man, and we need to be about the business of those things.

Dave Harrell 

Absolutely. My goodness, when you stop and think about the eternal destiny of men's souls depends upon the truths of the gospel and we are to be ministers of the gospel - the ministers of that reconciliation - that's what needs to be the priority of our life. You know, it's not to say that we don't get to do lots of wonderful things, and we shouldn't enjoy wonderful things, this side of glory, but we've got to live in light of those things, especially with our finances.

Cory Piatt 

Brother, that's helpful. So if that one goal that we're pursuing in ministry is to be presenting one another mature, or complete in Christ, practically speaking - I'd love to make a distinction here - how do we do that as those in vocational ministry? And then how do we do that as the average soccer mom who's just trying to raise her kids in the discipline and instruction of the Lord and so on. Do you think of those things differently? Or how do we present those?

Dave Harrell 

I would encourage people not to make any distinction there.  Certainly there is a priority in gifting. We see that in Ephesians four, that you know the pastor teacher, for example, you know we're to equip the saints to help them mature and all of those types of things, and the qualifications of an elder, therefore, would include, you know, being able to exhort in sound doctrine and refute those who contradict, being able to teach and all that. But look, everyone, every single believer should proclaim him, admonishing every man, teaching every man, so that we can present everyone complete in Christ. So that needs to be our spiritual sacrifice. In fact, as I recall the term "presenting every man complete or mature in Christ," that is, that is sacerdotal language of sacrifice. It's the idea of this is my sacrifice to the Lord. And if you're a mother, then Lord, my sacrifice to you is I'm going to proclaim you to my children. I'm going to teach my children the attributes of God. I'm going to take them...by the way, the Old Testament is great with this. It's overwhelming. Just, oh, look what he's done. So I'm going to proclaim him - the great character and the nature of God and all of those types of things - but I'm also going to admonish you. I'm going to instruct you. I'm going to warn you. Do this, don't do that. Just go to Proverbs and you see all kinds of examples of that. I'm also going to teach you the great doctrinal truths, and this is how you apply that to your life. This is how you have discernment on the playground or with this friend over here that's picking on you or the way you constantly pick on your little sister, or whatever it is. The point is, that's what we all need to be doing, right? Obviously, pastors, elders, you know, shepherds in a church, need to be doing that, and they need to be setting the example. But I don't care if you're a homemaker, you know, a mother, a farmer, a lawyer, a doctor. It doesn't matter what the vocation is as believers, this is what we need to be about, right? And we look, we need to look for every opportunity to do that.

Cory Piatt 

Yeah, make the best use of the time, because the days are evil.

Dave Harrell 

And the Lord's going to bless you for that, and you're going to find great joy in doing that. We used to sing a song. I don't know if you've ever heard it. "There's Joy in Serving Jesus." You haven't heard that? Okay, that's an old one, But I remember we used to sing that, there's joy in serving Jesus. I forget all the words. I need my wife here; she remembers the lyrics of every hymn that she has ever sung. I don't know how she does that, but the point is, as we honor the Lord that way - as we proclaim him, as we admonish others, as we teach others - we are presenting others complete in Christ, and that is our sacrifice, that is our service, that is what we're giving to him.  As John said, there's no greater joy than seeing my children walk in the truth.  The truth of the gospel.

Cory Piatt 

Yeah, I think of the words of James in James one where he says, He who looks into the perfect law being not a hearer who forgets, but a doer who acts, he will be blessed in his doing.

Dave Harrell 

That's exactly it. And isn't it wonderful, You’ve seen this, you're an elder now at our church, you've seen spiritual growth in men and women in our church. And isn't it a wonderful thing, you know, and we talk about that. It's like, man, is that guy ever growing in the Lord, what a change. Or a young lady, or even a young child, we just see this and how does that happen? Well, it happens through faithful moms and dads and Sunday school teachers and friends and aunts and uncles and grandparents proclaiming him, you know, admonishing those people, and teaching those people. And the Spirit of God takes that then, and he sanctifies them. You know, Jesus said, "Sanctify them in the truth. Thy word is truth." And so that's what goes on. So back to answer your question. I wouldn't divide it. Wha about those people that aren't in, shall we say, career ministry, well, you just do the same thing, just do the same thing.

Cory Piatt 

Well, I'd like to move to this last portion of our podcast here, quoting you on page 138, and 39 you say, "Based upon Paul's ministry, we see at least three categories of shepherding priorities that must be implemented if we hope to see people grow into spiritual adulthood that truly honors and reflects Christ." Now these three priorities kind of form the outline for the rest of your chapter there, and we'll plan to just walk through all three of these between this episode and the next one. I think we'll only have time for the first one here, but I'll give them to you, all three of them here, just briefly. Number one, first priority, we must proclaim the exalted character of God - what we've been dealing with. Number two, we must admonish others concerning the severity and scope of idolatry in their hearts. And then thirdly, we must teach others the importance of intimacy with God that leads to maturity.

Cory Piatt 

So let's begin with that first priority, namely, that we must proclaim the exalted character of God. We've been touching on this throughout the episode today, Dave. But why is this so foundational in our sanctification? I mean, shouldn't we just focus on preaching the imperatives and get about the business of obeying the commands of scripture for our Christian lives? Why do you start here with the character of God?

Dave Harrell 

Because that's what we see God doing all through Scripture, with people. He begins with his holiness, and the fact that...you've got to see that he is an infinitely holy God, and we have violated his standard of righteousness. And until you see that, until you see your sin, you'll never see a need for the Savior. So you have to begin with...just think how scripture starts. It starts with telling us he's the creator, all right?  I mean, there's nothing higher than that, all right? He speaks everything into existence and then from there, you begin to see manifestations of this character in all the great themes of the Old Testament. But you especially see in the 10 Commandments; I mean the first two speak to the fact that you better treat me the way I am to be treated. No idols here, no manufacturing some god of your own choosing. Which, by the way, evangelicalism has done. You know, we've got this smiley face God that kind of winks at sin, that kind of tolerates everybody, because, after all, he's God of love and so, or he's this social justice God, and all this crazy stuff that's out there, but you have to begin with an understanding of the character of God and most fundamental to all of that is his holiness. He is the thrice holy God, and it goes back to Isaiah, six in particular. So holiness is basically the all-encompassing attribute that demonstrates his infinite glory and perfections and righteousness and so forth. And so our kids need to have a fear of God.  The beginning of wisdom is the fear of the Lord, but fools despise wisdom and destruction. And you read that, you know all through Scripture. And so that's why, every opportunity I have, when I preach, I want to mention different things about the character of God, so that people are constantly hearing about his faithfulness, his sovereignty, his wrath, obviously his love, and so many other things. Especially with our children, we have to speak these things to them. Now they're not going to get it right at first, but little by little, they will. Don't ever underestimate how smart your kids are.  I mean, if they can pick up the bad words, they can pick up the good words too, and so that's why you have to start there. And that's why Paul said at the beginning, we have to proclaim Him.

Cory Piatt 

Man, okay, well, just to maybe drive the same point a little farther, as we behold this infinitely holy God and all of his perfections in Scripture, what are some ways that this understanding of who God is will impact our daily lives, or maybe, to put it practically, how does meditating on the holiness of God inform my work as an electrician, for example?

Dave Harrell 

Yeah, well, it's going to be different with everybody. It's not like well, when you do this, then these three things happen. I mean, the Spirit of God works differently with every single individual, as every every believer; he's constantly at work in you, he's constantly doing things to conform you into the likeness of Christ, and that's what it means to be complete in Him. But when it begins with the holiness of God and understanding just that infinite otherness of who he is and his hatred of sin, and then that informs everything about who I am. I have to realize then that this is who he is, and I can see my own sin, and yet in his infinite love, he has condescended to my lowly estate, and he has provided a way for me to be reconciled to Him. Solely by his mercy, solely because of his grace, and on that basis, I am overwhelmed with a sense of humility and thanksgiving; and knowing all of that, I want to honor him in everything that I do, as an electrician. So I'm going to work hard for the glory of God, because it's not like I can pay off the debt. That's not the idea, but it's because I love him so much because of what he's done for me. I'm going to honor him in my life. So I'm going to be honest in my work ethic. I'm going to be kind to other people. I'm going to love the Lord my God with all my heart, mind, soul and strength and my neighbor, as much as I love myself and I love myself a whole bunch. So, you know, that's how it informs who we are. But unless you have that perspective, that constantly causes you to be reminded of that...I was thinking about that today. Funny, you should bring this up. It took me an hour and 15 minutes to drive here today with all the traffic and I was watching people. I mean, if you don't believe in the depravity of man, you have never driven on the Interstate in Nashville, Tennessee. I mean, this has got to be one of the most depraved places in the country; but as I was watching people and cutting each other off and doing all kinds of signals with their hands and all, I found myself at times angry. It's like, look at what are you doing? And you know you're having to drive defensively, but constantly down within me, I'm thinking, Lord, thank you that someday this is all going to be over. Thank you that you've saved me by your grace. I pray that these dear people, that are so selfish and so wicked just in how they drive, I pray that somehow, I can be salt and light to them, because were it not for your grace, I'd be right there with them, and worse. And so the point is, the Gospel just informs everything about life as you live it. You know whether it's finding out that your granddaughter is pregnant and you're thinking about all that that means, or you're driving on the interstate getting cut off and watching people play car wars. You know, it just informs everything.

Cory Piatt 

Amen.  Even as you mentioned that the time, in the future, when all of this will be...the effects of the fall will be undone, this last Sunday you, you walked through kind of the story arc of the Bible. I wonder if you could maybe give that to us those - I don't know how you would put it - the goals of God's redemptive purposes in history. And I think you had three things that you mentioned that he's doing in creation.

Dave Harrell 

Oh, well, he's not only saving individual sinners, that's one of the things that he's going to do, but he's going to also eventually restore nations and societies and creation itself. This all comes, obviously, from a premillennial dispensational perspective, where you use a consistent, literal, grammatic, historical, hermeneutic, and you and you see these things. So the point is, the theme of of the Bible is not just the salvation of individual sinners, not just redemption, but rather, it's the kingdom of God, and the glory of God in that kingdom. And so you see that he is not only redeeming individuals, but he's going to redeem nations. He's going to redeem, literally, creation. He is going to be - Christ is the second Adam to do what the first Adam failed to do, and that is to rule and subdue. And so you have all of those things. I guess you'd have to point people to listen to that exposition and you get into all of that but, or I get into all of that.

Dave Harrell 

Once again, all of these things, this understanding and this awe when you look at everything that's happening, it begins with a high view of God and a high view of Scripture. And it's not just some academic thing. It's something that is intrinsic within our very soul. You know, this is the core of who I am as a worshiper of the living God. I've been made in his image. I've been saved by his grace. The Triune Godhead lives within me, and the very purpose of my life is to become conformed to the image of Christ, and one day worship the Triune God forever in glory. So everything else is just secondary, tertiary, rather than primary. And what I just said is, I don't know what number four or five would be, but it's beyond secondary, tertiary, and unfortunately, that's where a lot of believers live,

Cory Piatt 

Well, let me end with this question here. You have a lengthy section of this chapter where you discuss how all of God's perfections are put on display in the atonement. You mentioned that earlier. Would you mind helping us understand some of these ways that the atoning work of Christ, at his first coming, showcases the glory of God?

Dave Harrell 

"God the Father is also glorified in the Son through His sovereignty and faithfulness to fulfill His covenant promises to Adam and Eve and their descendants in the proto evangelium of Genesis 3:15, he promised to provide a redeemer. Later, pictured in the innocent animal he killed to provide a covering for sin in verse 21. His sovereignty and faithfulness are also put on display by providing a way of salvation to the elect of Israel and among the Gentiles who have been grafted into the root of Abrahamic blessing, the necessary elements for the dawning Messianic kingdom. He is also glorified in His omniscience as he carries out a plan of redemption that not only forgives sinners but also declares them to be righteous through the imputed righteousness of his perfect sacrifice. We see him glorified in His holy hatred of sin when He poured out His wrath upon the Son to satisfy his perfect justice. We see him glorified in His omnipotence that would not only raise Jesus from the dead, but also give spiritual life to dead sinners, and one day raise them from the dead. We see him glorified in His love that is magnified in a way so profound. John said quote "And this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. First John 4:10. Frankly, every attribute, every perfection of deity is dramatically displayed in the cross of Calvary. For this reason, Jesus said in John 13 and verse 32 "If God is glorified in Him, God will also glorify Him in himself and will glorify Him immediately."

Dave Harrell 

 So that's a bit of a summary. I mean, you just look at the atonement, you see so many of his attributes being put on display.  And it's wonderful, and to think, as we were talking about just a moment ago, that part of his restoration plan is being fulfilled with the first coming, and the rest of his restoration plan will be fulfilled when he returns.

Dave Harrell 

He will. He will do that. And, you know, I can't wait, you know, but between now and then we, we live our lives to the praise of his glory, and we honor him in every way that we can. But certainly, the priority has to be to proclaim him, to admonish others and every man, it says, and to teach every man, so that we can present every man complete in Christ. In other words, to present them as those who reflect the glory of the Lord Jesus Christ in all of his infinite perfections.

Cory Piatt 

Amen, that's wonderful, brother. Well, man, thank you. Let's hold it there, and we'll maybe finish the rest of this chapter next time. But thank you for your time and your insight on this brother. I'd like to close with this quote that you have in the book from the Puritan, Cotton Mather. He says, "The office of Christian ministry, rightly understood, is the most honorable and important that any man in the whole world can ever sustain, and it will be one of the wonders and employments of eternity to consider the reasons why the wisdom and goodness of God assign this to imperfect and guilty man. The great design and intention of the office of a Christian preacher are to restore the throne and dominion of God in the souls of men. To display in the most lively colors and proclaim in the clearest language the wonderful perfections offices and grace of the Son of God and to attract the souls of men into a state of everlasting friendship with him.

Dave Harrell 

Amen. So well said. Beautiful. Good, good, good.

Cory Piatt 

Well, we'll pick it up next time. We'd like to thank you all for joining us for this episode of the Fortified podcast with author and pastor, Dr David Harrell. For more books, resources and sermons, we'd like to invite you to check out shepherdsfire.org, and until next time, God bless you.