Cory Piatt  

Hello and welcome to the Fortified podcast with author and pastor, Dr David Harrell, we're so glad that you're here. Well, how can you know for certain that you have been called to the ministry? The world around us may offer several qualifications to look for in a prospective pastor or church leader. Are they a dynamic speaker? Do they know how to command a room? Do they have a charismatic personality? Now, although none of these qualities are bad necessarily, they fall woefully short of the qualifications given by God and His Word for shepherds of his flock. Well, on today's episode, we're going to look at some of those biblical ways to evaluate whether or not we have been called to the ministry, and we're going to seek to understand how being convinced of this calling is essential for longevity and joy in Christ's service. As always, we pray you're edified by this conversation, and we hope you enjoy.

Cory Piatt  

Dave, this episode today comes courtesy of chapter three of your book, Seven Key Principles for Effective Ministry. And the third key principle that you're walking through in that chapter is that we must be convinced of His calling. And just as a brief aside, at the beginning here, brother, I was so appreciative of the clarity that you bring to this subject. I think oftentimes when we think of God's calling in our lives, sometimes there's a degree of mysticism that accompanies that. You know, we think there has to be some kind of a sign or a vision or some extra revelation in order to know that we've been called to the ministry. And so I'm excited to hear you walk through with the biblical clarity and wisdom that you always bring to these subjects, the ways that we can know for certain that God has called us. And in the chapter, you actually walk through five tests that I wonder if we could just use as a kind of outline for the podcast here. And those tests are: does this individual have a longing to know and serve Christ? That's number one. Number two: a sense of urgency to preach the gospel. Three: a pervasive feeling of inadequacy. Four: a burden to shepherd the flock, and finally, five: a public confirmation of spiritual gifts, character and abilities. So brother, if it works for you, let's just walk through those. So starting with test number one: a longing to know and serve Christ. It seems like that would go without saying for a minister of the gospel. Why? Why did you think it important to include that as the first primary test for knowing whether or not you've been called?

Dave Harrell

Well, certainly, one of the main reasons is because of what Scripture says - and I'll elaborate on that in a moment - but it's so different than what I've heard people say before. "Yeah, you know, I finally surrendered to preach." "You know, I finally surrendered to the ministry." "I was fighting it tooth and nail, but finally God did something mysterious or mystical and now here I am." And that's just not at all consistent with what we see in Scripture and certainly the testimony of faithful men down through the ages. This idea, a longing to know and serve Christ. You stop and think about it, if that's not there, why are you doing this? There's so many other things a person could do, but I remember one of the key texts that I used in this chapter is in Colossians one, verse, 25 Paul says, "Of this church I was made a minister according to the stewardship from God bestowed on me for your benefit, so that I might fully carry out the preaching of the word of God." And so, a man understands that God's at work in his heart here; that God's calling him to do this, but he is going to do it because he loves Christ. You stop and think, for example, of the apostle Paul and his conversion, and his understanding, obviously, of all that Christ had done for him, and that certainly motivated him to want to honor the Lord in preaching the gospel. And even when you look at the qualifications for an elder, for example, First Timothy three, that if any man aspires for these things - the idea of straining every fiber of your being to honor Christ in this way - he desires a good thing. And there's the passion; there's the longing to honor Christ. But all of that is rooted in an overwhelming sense of gratitude and humility, knowing what Christ has done for you; and so that's got to be at the very heart. And I fear many young men in particular go into pastoral ministry because they're enamored with the office more than Christ. They're kind of excited about the romance of what it is to be a pastor. And they kind of see themselves in the pulpit, and they kind of see themselves as the next John MacArthur or whoever. And that's typically not going to be the case. Rather than being so consumed with what Christ has done, like Isaiah in Isaiah six, who saw the glory of the Pre-Incarnate Christ seated upon his throne and he was just overwhelmed by it - "Woe is me! I'm going to die" - basically, is what he said. And then the Lord said, "who's going to go for me?" "Well, here I am, send me."  And why would he do that? Well, it's because he knew who Christ was, and he loved him. He was overwhelmed by the glory of who he really is, and certainly that was the motivation then for - I'm off on Isaiah six here - but you remember, in Isaiah six, the Lord went on to basically say, look, nobody's going to listen to you, only just a small remnant. And he says, "how long?" Well, he tells them basically, all throughout your ministry, but there will be a small remnant. Well, how could a guy give himself to that unless he had seen the glory of Christ, unless he loved Christ? And that's why it's so important for a man to have a longing to know Christ and just have an insatiable appetite to be with him, as Paul said, “everything else is rubbish compared to the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord." So that has to be the motivation.

The same thing would happen with Jeremiah's ministry. Remember, it was like nobody listened to him. And Ezekiel, same type of thing. How could they go on? How could Peter go on? Knowing that he was going to be crucified at the end of his life? Well, the answer is: he loved Christ, and he knew who he was. And that has to be at the very core of what motivates a man to give his life to serve Christ as his under shepherd. If that's not there - and you've got to be honest about that - if that's not there, then you need to do something else.

Cory Piatt  

Okay, that's so helpful. Really a call to evaluate your own motivation in ministry. You have this quote from a Scottish pastor, Maurice Roberts, in the book that was very convicting. I'm gonnaget your thoughts on this. He says, "The believer is in spiritual danger if he allows himself to go on for any length of time without tasting the love of Christ and savoring the felt comforts of the Savior's presence. When Christ ceases to fill the heart with satisfaction, our souls will go in silent search of other lovers.” Like the applause of men, for example. What are some warning signs that we should look out for, Dave, to know whether or not this is happening in our own heart or in the heart of maybe a fellow elder or someone who's in our care?

Dave Harrell  

I mean, there could be so many things that distract us from continuing to pursue holiness in the heart and commune with the Lord and so forth. And by the way, one of the things that you'll see happening, if you're getting pulled - which can happen to any of us - your passion for the word will diminish. Your burden for the lost will diminish. Your prayer life will diminish. Just the overwhelming sense of joy that you have when you're in intimate communion with the Lord on a regular basis, and you know you're serving Him, and you're experiencing all the blessings that he just lavishes upon you - I mean, when you see those things waning, then something else is going to be filling the void, and you're going to be distracted with family, with the things of the world, with hobbies, with compromise. I mean, there's so many things out there that are appealing to the flesh that draw you away from really knowing Christ personally and being intimately involved with him through the study of the Word, through your prayer life, and just through serving him. I can tell you firsthand, if you want to know what will drive you to Christ, just get serious about shepherding, because it will be painful, it will be difficult, and you will have no place to run. Your wife will not be enough. Your friends will not be enough. You will only find joy and satisfaction and peace and power in Chris. Isn't that what, what Paul went through with the thorn in the flesh; that power is perfected in weakness. If you find yourself being more devoted to things that are pleasing to man than pleasing to the Lord, if you find yourself getting distracted with all of the stuff out there, the culture and all of the technology, and you're trying to gain a crowd - whatever it is - that's when your heart is secretly pursuing other lovers, as Maurice Roberts put it.

Cory Piatt  

That's wonderful. And then, as a follow up, practically, I think you've addressed this some, but practically, how have you avoided, personally, that tendency of simply going through the motions of ministry? Doing these things because I'm a pastor and I know I'm supposed to have these conversations; this service looks a certain way. How do you avoid going through the motions in ministry all the while steadily being numbed to the greatness and the glory of Christ?

Dave Harrell  

One of the most important things is discipline. You know, Paul told Timothy, you've got to discipline yourself for godliness. And by discipline, I'm referring to - not out of duty necessarily; studying the Word and basically being in prayer as you do it; but certainly, there is a desire component to that - but there is a sense in which, you know what, I'm tired. There are other things I need to be doing, but this is my time to be with the Lord, and I want to do this. It's not only the discipline - but it also works best for me early in the morning to just spend time with the Lord. Reading his word, periods of prayer. It always goes together because, "My sheep hear My voice and they follow Me." I want to hear his voice because I'm following him. And soit's that personal pursuit of holiness in terms of being in intimate communion with the Lord in prayer, because I'm dealing with people all the time and I'm shepherding people. I see good, I see bad, I see horror. And so all of these things bring me to a place where, "Lord, I’ve just got to sit down. I've just got to talk with you. Please help and please encourage. And thank you for what you're doing here. Thank you for what you're doing there. Oh, thank you for this passage of Scripture."

And so it's that, but it's also the discipline of exegeting scripture and constantly being in the Word; constantly learning, knowing that that at least a couple of times a week, but certainly on Sunday morning, I've got to be the Lord's spokesman, and I absolutely want to know what the text says, and I don't want to compromise that. And so by staying in the Word, you're staying in communion with the Lord, and you just find that those things are so much more satisfying than all of the things - the temporary, fleeting pleasures of the world. Now that's not to say you don't do other things too, obviously. I love to shoot sporting clays and so probably once a week I'm going to be out at the range. I love doing certain things like that. And you've got to have those things. And I love watching a good old cowboy movie. I mean, we’ve all got that too, but you've got to stay disciplined in terms of your own personal pursuit of holiness, your own study of the Word. And then, along with that, the commitment to shepherd your people to be involved in their life. And then also, for me, I always have to guard myself because there is a tendency in my flesh for me to want people to like me. And I mean, part of that is good, it's not like my I don't want anybody to like me, when people say, "Oh, I know you." I always, always wonder, are you in the long line or the short line? But there's, there's even times when I'm preparing for an exposition on Sunday morning where I think, oh boy, I don't know if I should use that example, because that's probably going to offend a lot of people. And so I have to be careful, because a lot of times I'll say no; people need to hear that. People need to hear that. So you just have got to guard yourself, and the Lord just blesses that. I mean, it's the whole issue of, when you walk by the Spirit, you won't carry out the desires of the flesh, right? And you'll manifest the fruit of the Spirit. And that's all of the blessings that are a part of being in intimate fellowship with the Lord. And as you enjoy those things, I mean, who wants this other stuff?  And you have discernment to walk away from that stuff. And frankly, you just don't have the desire for it.

Cory Piatt  

Right, that's excellent. I think you use the phrase in the book “cultivating the garden of your own soul and communion with the Lord before you can actually turn and minister to other people.”

Dave Harrell

Yeah, that sounds like something I might have said, That's exactly it. You've got to do that. And if you care for the garden of your own soul the weeds aren't going to grow up and it's just going to bear fruit. I mean, there's a physical analogy there.  I'm not much of a gardener, I like eating what's in the garden, but I don't like messing with the weeds and all but I understand the principle in my own heart. And I have to guard my heart. So there's a discipline to all of that, but it's a joyful discipline. There's a benefit from that. You have to discipline your body in terms of how you treat it physically. If you don't ever do anything, you sit around and eat pizza, drink sodas and watch TV while you're eating Cheetos off your chest, you're going to ruin your body. And so you have to guard how you treat your body - what you eat. It's the same thing. Spiritually, you really have to discipline yourself in that.

Cory Piatt

That's helpful. So the first test that we need to use in order to evaluate whether or not we've been called to the ministry is: do we have a longing to know and serve Christ? Let's look at the second one, test number two: a sense of urgency to preach the gospel. Now I'd love to have you elaborate on that and specifically, why the word urgency? Why not boldness or clarity? Why did you choose that word, urgency, to preach the gospel?

Dave Harrell

Because the souls - the eternal destiny of the souls - of men and women are at stake, and there are people in desperate need of the gospel, and you never know when they're going to get the phone call that they've got a terminal illness, or you get the phone call that the person has passed away from an accident, or whatever it is, and there's just an urgency that there are people out there who need to hear the truth of the gospel and so it's not something that I can have a cavalier attitude towards. This is very, very serious. We're at war, right? We are at war,and we look at all the satanic stuff around us. I mean, goodness gracious, just the satanic death cult known as the Democrat Party is enough right now, just to make your blood boil, to see how Satan has used these people to destroy our country. You see the rise of Islam in Europe, and you see there's an urgency here. We're at war and, you know, as Paul told Timothy, a good soldier doesn't allow himself to get entangled in the things of the world. I mean, there's a battle here. Yes, so it's urgent. You've got to be vigilant. You've got to be diligent. You've got to be consistently involved in the battle. You just can't lay back and rest. And I'll tell you, the other thing is, as I get older, I find that urgency increasing, because I don't have as long to live as I did when I was your age, you know? And so it's like, Lord, I want to do everything I can so that when I cross the finish line, there is nothing left. I'm collapsing over the finish line, right? It's just a burden for people's souls. And what a joy it is to see people come to genuine saving faith in Christ and to see them grow in Christ. It's one of the most exhilarating things in the world to see that happen. And what a heartbreak it is to see people squander their life away and turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside unto myths and be deceived by things that are absolutely contrary to God's Word and His will; things that are just utterly idiotic, like the whole woke thing that so many ostensibly evangelical people will embrace. It's justinconceivable that that can happen. So there is an urgency, because there's a battle.

Cory Piatt  

Amen. Keeping that eternal perspective in mind, I think of Revelation 14 contextually. Obviously, he's talking about those who've taken the mark and worship the beast. But he says, “’If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God's wrath poured full strength into the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.’” That's the eternal destiny of those who aren't, who have not trusted in Christ for salvation.

Dave Harrell  

Incomprehensible, heartbreaking. Yeah, I've been around a lot of death and dying, and I've been around people who do not know the Lord, and I I've seen them pass into eternity screaming. I've heard that I I've seen them, all of a sudden, begin to scream in horror and reach out and grab things. And you ask anybody in hospice, who works in hospice; I remember vividly, on several occasions in the palliative care unit at Vanderbilt, all of a sudden you'll hear this unbelievable screaming and racket and things falling, and I remember one time asking the nurse, “What's going on?” And her response is, “That's someone trying to cling to life.” And soI'm saying not only on the basis of Scripture, but on the basis of personal experience, it's a horrible thing to see people pass into eternal torment. And if you love people, that's going to be a driving force in your life, right? And a pastor better have that, or he doesn't need to be a pastor. He doesn't need to be a shepherd.

Cory Piatt

Amen, let me ask you this, Dave, in reading through these tests that you've given in the chapter, it struck me that most of these characteristics ideally should be true of every believer, not just those who are pastors. I wonder if you could speak to the congregation. Now, is this urgency to preach the gospel, something which should just be true of those who are in vocational ministry, or is this a mandate for the entire body?

Dave Harrell  

It's a mandate for the whole body. I mean, it's a unique calling and gifting that God gives to a pastor, right? Ephesians four talks about that. We have to equip the saints for the work of the ministry. I mean, there's uniqueness to that particular office, that particular calling; but all you have to do is look at all of the one anotherings in Scripture, right? You know that applies to everybody. The Great Commission is for everybody. That's what we need to be about. Andwhen you truly understand the gospel and what Christ has done for you, you're going to do that. It's going to be an automatic thing. Now you can get lazy and you can, at times, not walk by the Spirit, right? The flesh begins to take over. You can grieve the Spirit - quench the Spirit in your life - and those types of things, but overall, for the believer, they're going to be so excited about what Christ has done for them, that they can't help but have a burden for the lost and share that with other people, and to want to disciple them and whatever degree they can. And that's going to take on a lot of different ways of actually helping people grow in Christ. It's not always Tuesday night at seven. I mean, these are mandates for all of us. We all need to know and love and want to know Christ more. That's just part of it. John 15, “Apart from Meyou can do nothing.” “I am the vine, you are the branches.” You're not going to bear fruit unless you're abiding in me, and so all of these things apply to everyone.

And what's fascinating about the body of Christ is we're like cells in a body, organs in the body, we all have different ways of functioning. Our liver is going to do something different than the brain, but we got to have both in order for the body to work properly. So we're members of one another, and we respond to our head, which is Christ and so it's not just one thing does it all alone, we're all a part of this. By the way, you bring up something as I think about it, a lot of times, people feel rather complacent and grow lazy when it comes to evangelism and discipleship, because they see it as well, that's what missionaries, that's what pastors do. That's what the elders do, right? So I'll write a check and let them do that. I was preaching Sunday out of Zechariah seven and I mean, what you see is true religion, as James said in other passages, is you care for the orphans and for the widows, all of those types of things. And so this goes across the board to everyone. It's not just the pastor. So we all need to roll up our sleeves and get serious about ministering to one another, right? And, my goodness, if everybody did that in a church, just think what the Lord would do. But a lot of people, they like to sit up on the top deck and drink a mint julep, so to speak, and let everybody else do all the work. And that's really our culture, isn't it?

Cory Piatt  

Yeah, kind of consumer mentality.

Dave Harrell  

I'm entitled. I don't need to do this stuff. I'll let somebody else do it, right? So it applies to all of us.

Cory Piatt  

You brought up Ephesians four. But even when he lists those gifts that Christ has given to the body - pastors, teachers - he's given them to equip the saints for the work of ministry, so recognizing that each member of the body is to be utilizing their giftedness in order to build up the body in love. So in thinking about that urgency to preach the gospel, I was reminded of this Spurgeon quote, maybe you've heard this, “If sinners be damned, at least let them leap to hell over our dead bodies. And if they perish, let them perish with our arms wrapped about their knees imploring them to stay. If hell must be filled, let it be filled in the teeth of our exertions, and let not one go unwarned and unprayed for.” And so that should be the heart of every pastor and believer.

Dave Harrell

Absolutely, it really needs to be there. I mean, you just think about our children, don't we pray for our children and for me, grandchildren, and people in the church, I have such a burden for our people in the church. I know we've got people in our church that come every Sunday, and they don't know Christ. And then some of those, you know, they think they do, but there's really no fruit in their life to validate their profession. Matthew seven always comes to mind with that. And so you want to do everything you can to honor the Lord and present the gospel. And again, that is a desire that flows from the sanctifying work of the Spirit in our life.

Cory Piatt

Okay, excellent brother. Well, Dave, I wonder if we could go back to this. Could you give us some practical counsel, advice, suggestions on what people, maybe they're on the deck drinking the mint julep. Maybe they're convicted, they want to serve, they just don't know how. What encouragement would you give to those people?

Dave Harrell  

That's a great question. First of all, what you want to do is go before the Lord and acknowledge this and ask him to give you some clear direction. And he will do that, but to give you some practical things, there are avenues of ministry that are always available, not only inside the church that you attend, but also in your own community, perhaps even in your own family, and depending upon kind of your area of giftedness and where you feel comfortable, I know, for example, there are a number of older ladies in our church that are absolute prayer warriors, and I interact with them fairly regularly - hey, here's some more things to pray about, because they can't get out and do certain things. We're introducing a new ministry right now in our church, Fathers in the Field. There's an epidemic of fatherless boys, and we're partnering with a ministry, whereby men can come along and mentor with boys between age seven and 17, and our women can help disciple the mothers that have been abandoned by the fathers; the fathers are in prison, or something, they're just not there. So you look for those opportunities.

And by the way, the elders need to help provide these things. Also, there's ways that you can look at in your own community, as you pray, “Lord, help me have some opportunities just to get to know some people outside of my comfort zone.” right? One of the things that we found effective is we've had a thing called Sundae Sunday, and it's where we invite neighbors in our community to come over on a Sunday afternoon for a sundae and you know, no agenda. We've gotten to know people that way, or other things that you can do to just to care for people. But you've got to be intentional with it, and that's where most people are uncomfortable, getting intentional and even getting to know people that are already in their sphere of influence. And as you get to know them eventually, they begin to see your love for Christ, and you pray for opportunities for evangelism, for discipleship. And so the point is, you pray for those opportunities, and the Lord will give them to you. And I'm just giving you a few examples, but there's always opportunities all around you that you typically either don't see, or don't want to see, because you're intimidated. My what a ministry people can have with social media, just putting bible verses on social media, those types of things. And so pray about that and ask your shepherds to help you. You know, “I'm trying to figure out where can I serve,” and they can help assess that. And then you can find ways that are very practical. And once you get involved, and you see the affirmation of other people- whether you're driving elderly people to the doctor, you're helping take care of some kids for a mother in need - I mean, there's so many different things. All of those opportunities are typically there, if you will look for them. And so, pray about that, talk with your shepherds and see what God will do.

Cory Piatt

That's so helpful, brother. Thank you. Okay, so we've looked at the first two tests, number one: a desire to know and serve Christ. Number two: an urgency to preach the gospel. Let's look at the third test that you lay out in the chapter: a pervasive feeling of inadequacy. What do you mean by that?

Dave Harrell

You have to have a pervasive feeling of inadequacy, it's like Paul said, who's adequate for these things, right? There has to be an overwhelming sense that I cannot do this on my own. Yes, I understand the scriptures; yes, I can parse the Greek verbs; yes, I understand theology; yes, I know these things, I've been trained, but Lord, there's so much to pastoral ministry, and it's an overwhelming thing. You don't realize how overwhelming it is until you get into the thick of the battle. And there has to be a sense of, as we were saying earlier, of John 15. Lord, apart from You, I can't do anything. I am desperate here. It's Paul understanding that the reason the Lord had given him the thorn in the flesh is so that strength can be perfected in weakness. And so he says, I'm content with that now, I'll be content with the insults and all the things that come, because ultimately, I'm depending upon you, not on me. I know that when I get up to preach, for example, I'll do everything I can to make sure I have studied and I understand what the text says, and I'm going to communicate it to the very best of my ability. But it's not me, it's not my words, it's not my cleverness that is going to cause a person to truly come to faith in Christ or truly grow in Christ. It's going to be the work of the Spirit, through me, through His Word, that does that. And so I'm always overwhelmed with that sense of inadequacy. Every time when they do the final song and it's time for me to go up to preach, I'm praying as I go up there that the Spirit of God would do what only He can do through me, because I'm not supernatural - none of us are - and if you think that it's going to be your own cleverness or your own jokes or your own examples that you use, or whatever, that's going to change men's hearts, you're fooling yourself. You're living in a fool's paradise. But, it's rather to just humbly say, “Lord, I don't know what else to do here except just communicate what you have said in your Word, to do it with clarity, to do it with conviction, to do it with compassion. But Lord, this is your deal, and I'm comfortable with my weakness here.” And that has to be at the very heart of who we are, otherwise, pride comes before fall. You know, if you think you're going to do this in your own strength, and therefore, you don't really have that heart attitude that manifests itself in the ways like I'm talking about, you're in for a big surprise. Yeah, you may end up with a huge church. There's a big difference between a crowd and a church. And so that's why I put that in there. And you'll see this, you know, in the heart of everyone, in fact, in Scripture and people that I've known.

Let me look at an example here that comes to my mind in Ephesians, three. Just listen to what Paul said, I go back to this a lot of times for this reason, “I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesusfor the sake of you Gentiles.”   So you can see what he's sacrificing here, he says, “…if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God's grace which was given to me for you…” So I know that God has called me to do this, and that's going to be a driving force, “…that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief. By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit; to be specific…” And here's what's exciting to him, “…that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in ChristJesus, through the gospel, of which I was made a minister.” He didn't say, “You know what, hey, I think this would be a cool thing to…” No, no, no. He understands that God did a work and made him a minister according to the gift of God's grace. Not according to my high IQ and all of my training. No, no, this is a, “…gift by God's grace which was given to me according to the working of His power. To me, the very least of all the saints.” I mean, there's the inadequacy right? “This grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ, and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages have been hidden in God who created all things; so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places. This was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus.” And he goes on and says, “…in whom we have boldness and confident access through faith in Him.” And he goes on to talk about that. And at the very end, you remember, he says, “Now to Him who is able to do exceedingly abundantly beyond all that we ask or think according to the power that works within us, to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations, forever and ever. Amen.” I mean, it just kind of summarizes all that we've been saying here. That was the heart of the apostle Paul, who was a brilliant guy - had been trained at the highest level - but all of that, as he said, it's rubbish. The key is knowing Christ and the power of his resurrection that works in me as I proclaim the truths of the gospel.

Cory Piatt

Okay, that's wonderful, brother. Well, let me ask you this. You say on page 77, quoting Ephesians six here, “Paul was fully aware of his inadequacy and utter dependence upon the Spirit's power. This does not mean he was a wilting lily, afraid to preach. He was utterly fearless in his preaching! But he was humble enough to be suspect of his own spirituality--so much so that he asked the saints at Ephesus to ‘pray on my behalf…that I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak’ (Ephesians6:19-20).” Now I've heard you use that phrase before, Dave, “being suspect of our own spirituality.” What do you mean by that phrase there?

Dave Harrell

By that, I mean to be brutally honest with the realities of my own heart, the sinful proclivities in my own heart, the areas of weakness in my own abilities, all of those types of things, you just kind of lump it all up, and again, Lord, apart from you, I can't do anything, right? And so I'm always going to be suspect when I'm feeling like I'm riding pretty high here. You need to be really careful, because there are going to be areas where you're probably not even aware of your own sinfulness and how it's at work. Maybe it's your pride. Maybe you're going to coast for a little bit, because, after all, you've had a couple of hard weeks. I mean, there's just so many things that you have to guard against as you examine your heart; and that's why I'm constantly asking the Spirit of God to show me if there be any sinful way in me; show mewhere I've got a blind spot. And he always does. It’s such a good thing. And sometimes I don't see it right away, and then all of a sudden, it's like, oh my, I sense something going on in me here. “Lord, thank you for showing that to me, help me with this.” I need to guard my heart against those kinds of thoughts or that pursuit, or whatever it might be, and so I'm never going to be content that somehow, I've arrived. And there's a real danger. I've talked with a lot of pastors over the years that have fallen, typically morally, a moral failure; and without fail, they will acknowledge that they got to a point, a place, where they kind of believe that they were kind of at a different level than everybody. You know, I'm kind of up here, and everybody else is kind of down here, and so therefore I don't have to be as concerned about certain things as these people do. And that's a sure sign of pride that is going to cause you to fall.

Cory Piatt  

And just so I'm following you, that is no way undermining the assurance that we can have in Christ. If we're his, we're his eternally. But you're giving us insight on how we can evaluate our own heart and put to death the deeds of our flesh.

Dave Harrell

Exactly. I'm not talking about salvation. I'm talking about sanctification. I'm not in any way doubting his power to keep me safe. Salvation is all of God's grace. I'm glad you brought that up, because that's not at all what I'm referring to. I'm talking about my own perception of my godliness. You know I'm never as godly as I think I am.

Cory Piatt

Yeah, that point about believing our own press. I've heard you say, “we're hopelessly biased.”

Dave Harrell

Oh, my that's me. My picture is next to that, wherever you see it. We all can justify and rationalize just about anything, and I just know my own heart, I just have to ask the Spirit of God to help me guard against that. And you know, what's great is, as you grow in Christ over the years, you find that some of the things that used to be a real temptation, they just don't have the power they once did. But then there's other things that can creep in, and so you'll see a decrease in sin, a decrease in desire on certain things, but you've got to be careful that you don't say, “well, therefore now I can coast,” you know? And so you just you have to be suspect of your own spirituality,

Cory Piatt  

And man, what a gift to the body of Christ is as well. You quoted from Hebrews three last Sunday, but when he says, “Exhort one another every day, as long as it is called ‘Today,’ lest none of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.” And just that role that we have in one another's lives to guard against blind spots, indwelling sin, that we may not be fully aware of.

Dave Harrell  

And boy, there, there's where I have found the incredible gift of a godly wife, because she sees stuff that I wish she couldn't see, and she has such a sweet way of communicating that. Andyou just kind of melt; and it's fascinating to see how the Lord places people in your life that's going to help you. And it's not just your wife, and I know you do, but it’s other friends. You just want to be around other godly men and women, and iron is going to sharpen iron, and sometimes the sparks will fly. It's gonna be good, and the Lord uses that.

Cory Piatt  

Excellent, brother. Well, let's turn to our fourth test here. Test number four: a burden to shepherd the flock, you say on page 80, “Because of his compassion for those God has entrusted to him, a faithful pastor will spend his life nurturing, feeding, protecting and leading his flock. He will have a desire to shepherd sheep, not herd goats. While this will take time to develop more fully after a man enters the ministry, his compassion for others must be evident prior to it.” Practically speaking, Dave, what kinds of things are you looking for, in this regard, when evaluating a potential elder or pastor.

Dave Harrell

You look for a man that manifests, in his family and in the lives of other people, that that he has a heart for them, that he loves them, that he cares for them, spiritually. And what's fascinating is, sheep will follow a shepherd. And so, you look for a man that has a following, shall we say, with his family, with other people. And you learn over the years to see the types of characteristics that people will gravitate towards spiritually, not necessarily a charismatic personality or whatever. You look for the fruits of the Spirit in a guy, that's what you look for. You will see in a man that really aspires and desires - First Timothy three - you will see that manifested long before he's ordained as a pastor. If that's not already there, then he has no business; it's not like all of a sudden, you're going to get a degree, and now you've got that in your heart, right? And so, you look for those things, is this a man that truly cares for other people, and other people know that? And by the way, the way you will know your spiritual giftedness is by the affirmation you receive from other people, not what you not what you think about yourself. But when you see a man that has others, shall we say, coming to them and following them and you see that man caring for them in various ways, and especially spiritually and speaking into their lives intentionally, then you say, now there's a potential shepherd, yeah? So that's what you have to look for.

Cory Piatt

Okay, man, that's helpful. Yeah. In this section, you also discuss the necessity of one-on-onediscipleship, saying that “it's in the context of face-to-face intentional interaction that the Word is best brought to bear upon the practical issues of their lives. In this context, a pastor can really hear their heart, learn about their objections and doctrinal errors, and, most importantly, garner important insights into their personal struggles and sins.” I think sometimes we have a view of discipleship that's a bit more formal in nature - we're going through a book of the Bible, for example - and while that's beneficial, certainly, I wonder if you could elaborate on the value of that more organic discipleship, which we're talking about with shepherding.

Dave Harrell

Yeah, it really boils down to one anothering, fellowship. By the way, the danger here with a lot of pastors is just seeing themselves as the guy in the pulpit and that's all. He doesn't have time to visit the sick, or he might do a few things, but he doesn't really get to know his people, and he's not accessible to them. That's a real danger, but, but in terms of real discipleship, it's going to require you getting to know people, and that can happen through the various ways that we interact with people. Hey, let's grab a cup of coffee. Hey, would you guys come over? We'd love to get to know you better, or whatever it is, but especially when issues come up, I'm always doing this, whether it's through an email, a phone call or, you know, a cup of coffee or a breakfast or whatever it is; just constantly being involved in people's lives; and they have to know that you really care about them, and they have to know that you're accessible to them. Now, I know a lot of people, they'll say, “Pastor, I know you're really busy, but…” Look, I'm not too busy for you. That's why I'm here, because I love you. I care for you.  Now obviously you’ve got to have limits on it because there are some people that will occupy all of your time, and you got to be careful with that. But if you're really going to shepherd people, you've got to get to know them. The famous saying is “a shepherd has to smell like sheep,” right? And real discipleship is going to come when you sit down with somebody and you're talking about something, something comes up and you say, “Brother, I didn't know you were going through this. It's interesting what God says about that, this particular issue…” and such and such a passage. There's discipleship. You’re speaking into their life. And you just constantly have tohave that kind of mentality when you're dealing with people; that you're there to speak truth into their life, to hear them, to hear their heart and to genuinely care about them. It doesn't mean you can fix them all the time; doesn't mean they're always going to listen to you. Again, that's God's deal. But he has asked me, and you - back to the one anotherings - to be involved with one another and that's what discipleship is all about

Cory Piatt

Amen. And just to add to that as well, I think of in Hebrews where we're exhorted to consider the way of life of those who've been placed over us, right? And to follow their example, imitate their faith. And you know, our mutual friend and one of the elders at our church, I’ve learned so much from Jake, not just from what he's taught me in a more formal setting but just watching the way that he lives with his wife and his kids and so that's a tremendous gift from the Lord.

Dave Harrell

Absolutely, and I often say, I don't know necessarily that there's a Bible verse that says this, but more is caught than taught. A lot of times you just you see things modeled, and that's why it's important for a pastor and his wife and his family to be, shall we say, accessible, rather thankind of the untouchable. And I've known of a lot of people, especially in larger churches, where they just have never even had a conversation with their pastor. And maybe there's others that help the pastor and I understand that, that’s important too, but I noticed that in our church, years ago, once we got over about 70 people, I couldn't keep up with everybody, because it's not just them, it's their family members. And the tentacles go out long ways and once you get up into several 100, there's just no way that you can get to know everybody and stay involved in everybody's life, but you're accessible to them when they need you, and you've got other people that help care for them, but certainly those that do need you, they need you to look them in the eye, to really hear their heart and to care for them in that way. There's something powerful about face-to-face interaction. The pulpit is one thing, and that's important, but there's got to be that face-to-face interaction with people. That's what I'm talking about there.

Cory Piatt

Well, brother, I'd love to go back to one thing you mentioned with regard to the limitations. You say on page 84, “If a man considering the pastorate is personally deficient in shepherding his wife and children, he will not make this a priority in his ministry and as a result, forfeit blessing in his life and in his church.” I suspect it's always difficult to balance your pastoral responsibilities with your responsibilities to your family. My question is, how do we think about that balance? And then what counsel would you give to someone who's struggling to serve those entrusted to his care and yet feels as though it's to the detriment of his family?

Dave Harrell

Well, that's another whole book, isn't it? Well, certainly you're disqualified if you can't manage your own households. We understand that, but there is a sense in which, especially for a shepherd, whether he's a senior pastor or an elder or whatever, there's always a battle for balance and we have to battle that in every area of our life right down to how many donuts am I going to eat the next night? There's a balance and so what I have learned to do is basically focus primarily, when it comes to really pouring my life into people, focusing primarily on key men, because that's what the Lord did. I mean, he spent most of his time with the 12 and primarily with three of them. So I'm going to pour my life into some of my key men, but then from there, there, I'm going to be accessible to everybody, but I'm not going to sacrifice my family time for all of them. There's only so much that I can do and so I learned to just adjust my time accordingly. And you've always got to be careful, because there's always the VDPs, the “very draining people” that you can spend the rest of your life with them, five hours a day, and they're not going to change. So you just have to fight that balance.

But I will also say that when it comes to shepherding, there's never enough time to do everything that needs to be done, and you just learn to live with that. There's always going to be areas where you could say, “I should have spent more time with my kids.” Or you spend a lot of time with them and then say, “I should have done more over here.” I mean, that's just life in a fallen world, right? And you learn to deal with that, but I'm very careful to structure my time on a weekly basis so that I can get everything that's important in.  There are non-negotiables; there's times that I spend with my dear wife and when my kids need me, I’m there. When my little granddaughter - she's the only one that can interrupt me on Friday when I'm in the midst of study - I mean you bend with those things, but there are certain things like when I am absolutely in the vault of study, Thursday, Friday and Saturday, with some exceptions of different things. Okay, it's just non-negotiable because I have to preach the word on Sunday morning. And I think MacArthur called it “the tyranny of the Sunday morning sermon.” You just have to do that. And then I've got certain things I do on Monday, certain things I do on Tuesdays, usually almost every weeknight is filled with something either for family or for other people, so you just learn to structure that. But if you don't structure it, and you don't have areas of prioritization, then you'll find yourself greasing the squeakiest wheel, and you're pulled. You're reactive rather than proactive. And it's great too when you pour your life, and this is taking years, but when you pour your life into other faithful men and other faithful women through them, then you have a whole church full of shepherds, right? And it's so wonderful to hear somebody say, “Boy, I spent time with Cory and Jet, and it was such a blessing; they really spoke into my life.” And I'm thinking, “man, isn't that great?” And then you hear that on multiple occasions, from all the people; that’s how the body is supposed to work. You know, one cell isn't supposed to do all the work, right?

Cory Piatt

Okay, well, brother, you've given us some great principles. That's wonderful stuff. Let's look at the last test here to know whether or not we've been called to the ministry. And you alluded to this earlier, but a public confirmation of spiritual gifts, character and abilities. Now we know that in First Timothy three and Titus chapter one, we're given some qualifications for those who are the overseers in the local church. What do you mean by public confirmation of spiritual giftedness?

Dave Harrell

That other people have to affirm that this man is indeed gifted in this area. And when I say gifted, I don't mean that he's necessarily gifted with eloquence or gifted with an incredible grasp of Scripture, but he's gifted in terms of being able to communicate the truths of Scripture in such a way as to move the hearts and minds of men and women and boys and girls. So there has to be other people, especially in on the whole ordination process, you've got to have people that certainly understand the great doctrinal truths of scripture to be able to assess - does this guy know his stuff. Is he making up stuff? The old Puritans, you may recall, it was illegal to ascend “the sacred desk” as the pulpit was called, unless you had been ordained by your peers, because they considered the pastor a physician of the soul. And it's just like a physician of the body, they have to go through residency, and they have to be board certified, right? Wouldn't it be great if we could do that with pastors? Because we’ve got so many self-appointed people out there; they have no business being in the pastorate. But other people have to be able to affirm that, yes, this guy is doctrinally sound. But also the rest of the people have to say, “I'm really drawn to that man. There's a presence about that man that makes me feel safe and confident in his care. I can tell that he knows and loves Christ. I see it in how he treats his wife. I see it in how he treats his kids. I see it in how he treats other people.” And sothere's the public affirmation. If you've got people that are undiscerning, and all they're looking at is how loud he could preach and quiver his voice and make jokes and all the stupid stuff that people do. I had some of my black friends telling me that's where the old hoot and holler came in. You've heard, “he's not worth a hoot” or “he's not worth a holler.” They used to judge pastors based on that - he's worth two hoots and a holler if he's really good. And obviously they're being facetious, but there's some merit, that's how some people would judge people. But that what I'm talking about here is the affirmation that other godly people will have towards a man who truly manifests a love for Christ, and you can tell when you hear that man speak that he is speaking the truths of the Word of God and lives are changed because of it. That's what you look for.

And by the way, there are times where you know you may think you see that, and then you find out from his wife that not all is what it seems to be. You know Paul talked about. How thatsome men's sins go before them in judgment, and others follow far behind. And sometimes you think, and I've made that mistake, I remember early on, you think, well, this is kind of the best we have here. And you know, we got a little church starting out. We got to have some guys in leadership, and they're not really fully qualified, but they're the best we have. And then later on, you think, oh my what a mistake and you begin to see things and hear things. It's like, oh my word. I can't believe they said that, or they're doing this, or whatever. I think I use this in the chapter, you see how people had a love and a respect for Timothy and others - the deacons in Acts and other places - and so that takes time. That's why we have a Shepherds in Training type of program at Calvary, where young men who are aspiring and desiring to be an elder, we give them an opportunity to participate on the elder board. The elders, first of all, think this looks like a good candidate, but let's give it some time. Let's give them a voice, but not a vote. Let's let them get involved in shepherding. Let's see how they respond to the battle- we got a new recruit here. He's still green. He doesn't know what it's like to take fire yet. And let's see how they do. And we've had some men that say, “Boy, this isn't for me.” And we could see, yeah, this isn't for you. And then others, “this is where I believe God would have me serve.” That's part of a process that we do. There's no third Timothy that says you need to do that, but at some level, you need to do that.

Cory Piatt  

There has to be some evaluation. Well, that gets to the last question I wanted to ask you on that end, I know you've spent a lot of years counseling pastors. Say you're speaking to a pastor who perhaps is in a situation like what you described, where he doesn't have…it’s a small church, doesn't have a lot of people to look for with qualified men. Is the encouragement to wait, continue to teach, continue to trust the Lord with that? Or do you try and get the best suited for the position at the time?

Dave Harrell  

Yeah, I would say you wait, and you pour your life into some man that you think is a good possibility and you really invest in him. You know, as Paul said, with Timothy, you entrust to those faithful men, these things that you've heard, right? And then you build that person, because otherwise you can run into the same problem that I ran into, really of my own making. It's easy to affirm men prematurely, and then you've created a real problem. But you know, it's really hard for guys in a small church, because you don't have a lot to choose from and so you just have your people trust you, to kind of make those decisions and shepherd the church and then pray that God will gradually raise up men. That's what he did at our church, and it's taken a number of years. But I would go with the latter, not the former of what you just mentioned.

Cory Piatt

All right, brother, well, thank you for your insight on this subject, Dave, again, it's so helpful to hear the kind of biblical clarity and maybe demystifying this process of knowing or evaluating whether or not we've been called to the ministry. Again, those five tests that we should look for in an individual: a longing to know and serve Christ, a sense of urgency to preach the gospel, a pervasive feeling of inadequacy, a burden to shepherd the flock, and finally, a public confirmation of spiritual gifts, characters and abilities.

This has been so helpful, I wonder if I could end with just a wonderful quote from Spurgeon that you draw out in your book. He says, “Do not enter the ministry, if you can help it… If any student in this room could be content to be a newspaper editor, or a grocer, or a farmer, or a doctor, or a lawyer, or a senator, or a king, in the name of heaven and earth let him go his way; he is not the man in whom dwells the Spirit of God in its fullness, for a man so filled with God would utterly weary of any pursuit but that for which his inmost soul pants.”

Well, thank you, brother.

Dave Harrell

You’re welcome.

Cory Piatt

We'd like to thank you all for joining us for another episode of the Fortified Podcast with author and pastor, Dr David Harrell, and for more of books, resources and sermons, please check out shepherdfire.org. Until next time. God bless you.